Stars 15+1

[pooh74]

Sorry, I'm at work and dont have the HH, but this pretty close:

Blinds: 400/800 antes 50

3 players left,

UTG-HERO: 8000

SB-3800

BB-1700 (before posting 800)

I am UTG with A8o. Easy push right? Even though its an insta call from BB? I feel like I am crazy for asking, but Ive been thinking about this situation lately a lot.

Ill explain my thoughts after some responses.

[OatmealJoe]

I don't like to get tricky here. Just push, or bet enough to put the BB all-in. I'd think that puts enough pressure on the SB who will need a fairly good hand to call before BB action. Certainly an Ace is a fine hand to have three handed.

[hyde]

Ill explain my thoughts after some responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

push.
explain thoughts.
I'm curious to hear why you don't love this.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Ill explain my thoughts after some responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

push.
explain thoughts.
I'm curious to hear why you don't love this.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not the SB I am worried about as he will fold everything up to about 5 hands.

What I hate is that BB is always calling...And maybe 40% of the time I am creating a new 3 way scenario. When BB wins he has almost 4000 and we are are, for all intents and purposes, all even again given the blinds are 800. I feel like I am better off keeping the status quo and picking off SB some more if possible. IOW, I have no exploitation ability in this hand, its my 2 vs. his. Whereas, if I fold, I can either:

lock up at least 2nd if SB gets him, or, steal SB's blind again and widen the stack gap some more for heads up.

Maybe I am going crazy...cas A8 is a monster 3 way.

[Raemius]

I'm betting 2000, puts BB all-in, but also, if SB pushes, I will fold. People will sometimes get good hands in the blinds. and I would rather end up with 6K than 4K heads up.

There is a very high chance that BB will call, but it is hightly unlikely for SB to call/push with anything but a premium hand.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm betting 2000, puts BB all-in, but also, if SB pushes, I will fold. People will sometimes get good hands in the blinds. and I would rather end up with 6K than 4K heads up.

There is a very high chance that BB will call, but it is hightly unlikely for SB to call/push with anything but a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my above reply. This isnt my concern with this scenario (SB overpushing). I put SB calling pushing at about 10% or less and BB calling at about 90% or more if either knows whats up.

Edit: this is probably an easy ICM calc and Im sure it says pushing is best.

[hyde]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ill explain my thoughts after some responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

push.
explain thoughts.
I'm curious to hear why you don't love this.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not the SB I am worried about as he will fold everything up to about 5 hands.

What I hate is that BB is always calling...And maybe 40% of the time I am creating a new 3 way scenario. When BB wins he has almost 4000 and we are are, for all intents and purposes, all even again given the blinds are 800. I feel like I am better off keeping the status quo and picking off SB some more if possible. IOW, I have no exploitation ability in this hand, its my 2 vs. his. Whereas, if I fold, I can either:

lock up at least 2nd if SB gets him, or, steal SB's blind again and widen the stack gap some more for heads up.

Maybe I am going crazy...cas A8 is a monster 3 way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to have to face him down sooner or later. mostly sooner, because if you let him have a few blinds he will have a stack that will cripple you. Or at least bring you to even.
You need to get him now. You certainly can't wait for a better hand or better position.
The blinds are huge and it is something of crap shoot time anyway.
And I disagree with the poster who wants to just put the smallstack allin and laydown if the middle stack re raises. You fear very few hands from him.
I must agree with your self analysis of going crazy as this is a monster hand in this situation.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ill explain my thoughts after some responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

push.
explain thoughts.
I'm curious to hear why you don't love this.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not the SB I am worried about as he will fold everything up to about 5 hands.

What I hate is that BB is always calling...And maybe 40% of the time I am creating a new 3 way scenario. When BB wins he has almost 4000 and we are are, for all intents and purposes, all even again given the blinds are 800. I feel like I am better off keeping the status quo and picking off SB some more if possible. IOW, I have no exploitation ability in this hand, its my 2 vs. his. Whereas, if I fold, I can either:

lock up at least 2nd if SB gets him, or, steal SB's blind again and widen the stack gap some more for heads up.

Maybe I am going crazy...cas A8 is a monster 3 way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to have to face him down sooner or later. mostly sooner, because if you let him have a few blinds he will have a stack that will cripple you. Or at least bring you to even.
You need to get him now. You certainly can't wait for a better hand or better position.
The blinds are huge and it is something of crap shoot time anyway.
And I disagree with the poster who wants to just put the smallstack allin and laydown if the middle stack re raises. You fear very few hands from him.
I must agree with your self analysis of going crazy as this is a monster hand in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I agree I am crazy. I think previously (in other SNGs) I have put the shortie in with less than stellar holdings unnecessarily and it came back to haunt me when I took third. (after so much work exploiting the stack sizes to biuld a huge stack). This case is diffenent in that A8 plays great on its own here.

The point of this hand was not to discuss SB at all, which you picked up on.

What is the worst holding you shove with here UTG, same stacks? Is it pretty wide given the extreme likliehood it will be HU b/t you and BB?

[Raemius]

But wouldn't you thnk $2K would be enough for SB to fold, even if you didn't push?

But it still leaves you a way out, because you are behind any PP, which SB may push with, and also A-x where x>8.

I used to push here, but I've found I've been called with hands as weak as A-T online. Lately, betting big, but not enough to hurt me is usually enough.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
But wouldn't you thnk $2K would be enough for SB to fold, even if you didn't push?

But it still leaves you a way out, because you are behind any PP, which SB may push with, and also A-x where x>8.

I used to push here, but I've found I've been called with hands as weak as A-T online. Lately, betting big, but not enough to hurt me is usually enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be priced in to insta call any range he would do that with so, although a raise of 2000 is fine maybe, im calling any reraise there, so why not take that option away.

I think it would be 3.5-1 to call SB's push...so you see, its not viable to fold to it

[pokerlaw]

In this situation, I have folded Ax, KJ, 22-66 and similar hands IF I had previously been pushing relentlessly with success (this also occurs more on the bubble, but the current stack sizes place you with a great chance of getting first).

My reasons for doing so are that that range still leaves me a 35-45% chance of losing to the almost inevitable call AND more importantly, my fold lets the SB and BB battle it out, allowing me to potentially be heads up or with the bigger lead over both stacks, both good things. I guess what I am saying is while pushing here is almost certainly +EV, folding and waiting for a more +EV situation later is fine by me.

Here, A8o is a VERY close decision given the right circumstances. I can be quite comfortable folding if I feel the opponents are beatable enough for me to outplay them heads up and/or steal theirs and defend my blind after this hand. most times I push, especially in a 1 table tourney (compared to 2 and 3 table tourneys).

you hold 22 here?

[Angelic_Ace]

It is definitely +EV to push here. The blinds are 1200 alone, and if the BB calls, you are most likely a solid favorite. The SB's calling range here will be quite small unless you've been super aggressive and he is looking to make a stand which could cost him 2nd place.

[QuickLearner]

[ QUOTE ]
It is definitely +EV to push here. The blinds are 1200 alone, and if the BB calls, you are most likely a solid favorite. The SB's calling range here will be quite small unless you've been super aggressive and he is looking to make a stand which could cost him 2nd place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Recognizing that I'm just starting to play STTs and should therefore be ignored at best, wouldn't the SB retain second if both he and the BB go out on the same hand? If that's true and I put myself in his spot and think that hero is just trying to bully the BB, won't my calling standards widen quite a bit?

Also, would a min raise by hero accomplish the same result vis a vis the BB? I think I remember Harrington writing (paraphrased) that a raise which is begging to be called is scarier than a push?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is definitely +EV to push here. The blinds are 1200 alone, and if the BB calls, you are most likely a solid favorite. The SB's calling range here will be quite small unless you've been super aggressive and he is looking to make a stand which could cost him 2nd place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Recognizing that I'm just starting to play STTs and should therefore be ignored at best, wouldn't the SB retain second if both he and the BB go out on the same hand? If that's true and I put myself in his spot and think that hero is just trying to bully the BB, won't my calling standards widen quite a bit?

Also, would a min raise by hero accomplish the same result vis a vis the BB? I think I remember Harrington writing (paraphrased) that a raise which is begging to be called is scarier than a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im going to quote this post and also respond to another.

Pokerlaw, good post, that is my thinking exactly. Fact is, I was relentless in this one and I would fold in this position with many hands. Thing is here, I actually have a hand that is decent 3 way, but w/o fold equity.

again, you guys are all confusing my query as having something to do with the SB. I really dont care about the SB here. His range should be ultra tight here...in fact maybe only QQ-AA and Ak.

The BB is not folding to any raise because half of his chips are in the pot already and the next half will be on nthe next hand leaving 400 behind with, literally, 0 fold equity. The whole point is here that he IS calling no matter what, so is A8 worth it here. I am good for first if I win the hand, but If I really trust my head's up ability, why not go into HU mode with possibly a little less but assure myself not to start the slide into 3rd.

The interesting thing about this hand is the sheer size of the blinds. The BB is priced to call with any 2 and if he wins, he is just as in it as myself or BB. So A8 seems very borderline to me and in hindsight, I think I could fold this given I dont want to creat a 3way crapshoot again.

The

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
The BB is not folding to any raise because half of his chips are in the pot already and the next half will be on nthe next hand leaving 400 behind with, literally, 0 fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they play correctly they are not folding to any raise. At the $16 level I have seen the BB fold this many times. I agree that he should not but sometimes they think they might be able to slide into second with a fold.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The BB is not folding to any raise because half of his chips are in the pot already and the next half will be on nthe next hand leaving 400 behind with, literally, 0 fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]


If they play correctly they are not folding to any raise. At the $16 level I have seen the BB fold this many times. I agree that he should not but sometimes they think they might be able to slide into second with a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


True...and to be honest, in this case, this guy was capable of folding I think. lol