Sit and Go Strategy

[eMarkM]

I've been playing HE ring games for over a year now and have been concentrating on just that. Now I'm branching out and I've been trying NL HE tourneys for the first time in a serious manner. Specifically, the PP single table "sit and go" tourneys where the blinds are raised every 10 hands. At some point I'll play multi table, longer formats. So this is sort of a newbie post.

So far, I've done rather well in my whole two evenings of tourney experience. I've been in the money 11 of 17 times, with 4 first prizes playing $10-30 tourneys. But I'd like any other pointers others more experienced in this format could offer. I haven't read this board too much in the past, I'm sure this topic has been discussed before.

Essentially, my strategy involves not getting involved in too many hands early and let others knock each other out. Seems that's what the best tourney players do in the longer formats, it should work in a short format, too. Not that I won't reraise all-in with AA or other nutty hands, just that I play super tight. I just sit back and watch the fireworks. It's just amazing how many players bust out long before the blinds start getting to the strategy-changing 30/60 level. Guys reraising all-in with their middle pairs or pure bluffs with the blinds at 10/20. Maybe I don't take enough chances, but I never do stuff like this in the early going unless I have damn near the nuts. If I get bluffed off a winner early, so be it.

It's almost like you can just post and fold for the first several levels and be one of the 5 left when the blinds start making everyone desparate. Then open up and get aggressive. In one tourney I was in exactly one hand, lost 200, before I played another when the blinds reached 30/60. There were 5 players left at that point. I was the short stack at 800, leader was at +3K, I doubled up quickly and from there won in the late stages as being chip leader with the blinds so dominating in the late stages isn't such a huge advantage. Get a couple of good hands, and...

So I just try and survive to the "crapshoot" phase where even the chip leaders are forced to go all-in frequently. My biggest problem is that I frequently end up fourth (only twice have I failed to make the top 4 when I've lost), as my conservative style can result in me being the short stack when it gets down to 4 and I'm forced to make a move lest the blinds swallow me up. But, of my four wins, only once was I the chip leader when it was down to 4. Once the crapshoot starts, it's nearly anyones game. 11/17 is pretty good, though it could be just short term luck. Critques or suggestions with this approach are appreciated.

[cferejohn]

I play the 1 and 2 table sit-and-gos at Pokerstars and I have a fair degree of success with the strategy you describe. In almost every oneof these there are a couple players who are bound and determined to get all in in the first 5 minutes. Unless you have AA or KK, you shouldn't be the one who is all-in with them. I would not go all-in with them with AK, since they often do this with a pocket pair.

Of course, one of these guys is likely to end up the early chip leader. After that, just avoid Mr. 'I like to go all in's big stack until you have a huge hand and concentrate on buying pots from the weak-tights who are usually also around.

[DaNoob]

I use the same strategy also, and it has worked out for me more times than not. Let's hope we don't all end up on the same table. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this, as I always wonder if a more aggressive approach is worthwhile. I'm always amazed at how well the really aggressive players seem to do early on. I've watched tournies where the aggressive types will play 80+% of their hands and bet out on 60+% of them. More often than not, people will fold to them even though their odds of having anything at all (given that they see 80% of the flops) are probably much less than 50/50. And yet, I still stick with my tight, patient approach.

Has anyone had success going the other route?

[Bubmack]

If you have been playing in those tourneys the past two nights, you were probably in with a few players trying to gain promo points for the WSOP Promo. Therefore, they are a bit more aggressive and probably easier to place.

bubs

[Hotchile]

This strategy will work well in 70% of all situations. However, there is that other 30% where you are not the only one who is sitting and waiting to neutralize the skill advantage. What if you get AA and KK and AK in the early stages of the tourney and don't make any money from them. Hoping to get these hands later on in the tourney may be overly optimistic and a strategy change is going to be required.

Hint, since you are going to be sitting trough most of the first few rounds anyway, spend some extra energy and attention watching other players to determine how you will survive later in the tourney when you are NOT getting premium hands.

Larry

[cferejohn]

I think you are refering to something that is going on at Paradise?

Anyway, my observations are based on play over the last couple weeks.

[eMarkM]

when I was playing the last two nights, the promo "session" was during the day. But I'll keep that in mind when they switch back to evening sessions.

[eMarkM]

Let's hope we don't all end up on the same table.

One of the times I finished poorly, like 6th or 7th, the blinds were at 30/60 and there were still 8 players with roughly equal stacks. Tough to wait it out when your stack is near the bottom. So I know I'll run into that situation from time to time. I guess during those times, you have to recognize it early and become more aggressive.

[sdplayerb]

I pretty much do the same thing. I'll limp a little bit if 2.5% of less of my chips.
I've only been playing super tight recently, but have been doing great.
I feel I play very well when at a short table. I really like the 2 tables when down to 10-12 people, great time to pickup chips.

The blinds are just not worth anything early on.

You can also learn a lot at this point seeing who overraises preflop, etc.

There is usually enough bad players that when you do hit a big hand that you can get paid off. I usually have only won one or two showdowns by the final 4 people.

So please, don't join my table.

[eMarkM]

You can also learn a lot at this point seeing who overraises preflop, etc.

What's the deal with people raising first all-in when the blinds are 5/10? I see this constantly. Who's going to call besides AA/KK? Gee whiz, you won $15 in blinds.

Ok, another newbie type question. What is a good raise that's not an overraise in the early game? I've pretty much been sticking to 3X BB consistently. With AA/KK, the same, but will go all-in if reraised, etc.

[cferejohn]

I had trouble with this too. I usually go w/4x the BB (since 3x often won't drive people out, which is what I am trying to do usually) for the first few levels, and scale it back to 3x at level 3 or 4 (depending on the structure of where I am playing).

If there have been several limpers and I have a really strong hand (AA/KK/AK), I'll usually bump it a notch (i.e. 5x at low blinds and 4x at higher ones, and all-in if I've got less than 8x the BB or so).

In Sklansky's tournament book, he talks about raising about 7x the BB when you are in the BB and there have been a whole lot of limpers (at least 7). He reccommends only doing this with crap hands like J7o (or obviously with AA/KK). That way, if you are re-raised you can let it go easily. You would not want to try this with something like AT or KQ, because then you are in all sorts of trouble if you are re-raised.

I should clarify that Sklansky does not reccommend always doing it, he merely points it out as an example of a play you could make and to illustrate his point that you should try to raise only when you don't mind a re-raise (either because your hand is very strong or very weak and you can throw it away).

[Bubmack]

sorry C,

I was attempting to respond to the original poster, but incorrectly responded to your post.

[sdplayerb]

I go with 3x in the early going.
When I start opening up later stealing I go with 3.5 a lot, especially if there are antes.

I laugh too when somebody pushes in. I know some of them are stealing even and are happy with themselves for bluffing everybody out with crap. And they are always out soon enough.

I also like people that do like 7x raises. You just know they are knew to the game.
It get pretty fun when down to 5 people as usually it is then decent players.

[Bubmack]

I disagree that 3x is a good raise early (1st 2 rounds) in the Sit N GO tournies.

The reason being - you are still giving someone a cheap shot at cripling your stack. I've called $30 with suited connectors many times - knowing that my implied odds are much greater than my pot odds. That is why I usually overbet with hands like AA, KK, QQ and AK. I would like a call, but I want to be able to put that person on a hand to protect myself. If you only raise for $30 - you cant put that person on a hand with any certaintity.

After the 1st 2 rounds, I like 3x the blinds and sometimes 2.5x the blinds if the guy is tight. I think that is one of the most important pieces of information that you can have on a guy - is the amount for which they fold the blinds. Like wise , if someone will not fold the blinds - open up big on them everytime - and let them call their weaker hands.

Bubs

[cferejohn]

Since the only tells you can really pick-up online are bet size, and possibly time to bet (although that could be a lot of things), I try to standardize my bet sizes. If raise pre-flop, its always going to be the same amount at a given level. If I bet the flop, it's pretty much always going to be for the amount of the pot.

[Bubmack]

I am not so tight early in the tourney. I have found that playing as many of your drawing hands for the minimum to be a very profitable approach to the game. THe pay-off is very high, IMO.

Usually when you make your hand, big bets are the order of the day. And the fish just callcallcall. I mean overbetting the pot by 2x and they will still call gut shots and overcards. SO I think if your folding your big draws early in the tourney - your missing some positive EV. (I am including a hand like Kd,2d in this group) I believe around round 3 is when I begin to tighten up.

And if you run-up your bankroll and the maniacs have finally busted out - it is time to use that bankroll on the weak tights that love to fold.

Bubs

[sdplayerb]

I like to use the same raise every time so nobody can put me on a had.
And it is fine if they call. I believe I can outplay them after the hand.
I don't push in on the flop in such a situation.
They will pay for their flush and str draws.

Plus at 3x i feel it is more likely somebody will come over the top of my AA, and that is what i really want.

[cferejohn]

Exactly. And once they have done that once (or seen someone do that once), they are going to be much more wary of your subsequent raises for the exact same amount. Often if I do steal with AA or KK early with a 3x or 4x raise, I will show it for this very reason.

[sdplayerb]

that is an interesting one on showing.
I have decided never to show. I don't even necessarily believe it when somebody shows, i think it is an act.

I actually like losing a hand where i was playing crap. Because I know I will take a huge pot when I have cards.

Hopefully i'll be playing in a sat within 30 mins.

SD

[cferejohn]

Yeah, I don't always do this, and when I do it I try to steal more often afterwards. My general feeling is that in a ring game, I want callers, and in a tournament, I want people to fold. Even when I have the best of it, the fact of the matter is that if they fold, I don't get additional chips (and the more chips you have, the less valuable the additional ones are), and if they call, they could still draw out, which could take all or most of my chips, which, since they are my last or close to it, have more value.

Obviously this is not true in situations where I have the nuts or very close to it (i.e. a big full house), but more often I am betting with something like top pair, good kicker, and then I generally want people to fold.

Now that I write it down, it sounds like a cowardly attitude to have, but it is how I usually think.

[sdplayerb]

PokerStars Game #53974395: Tournament #79542, Hold'em
No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2003/04/08 - 20:40:30
(EST)
Table '79542 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Flashheart (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Wood (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: papatony1177 (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: Ed95Pont (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: treeguy (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: airgun1 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: lumina (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: sdplayer (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: Serge58 (1500 in chips)
Wood: posts small blind 10
papatony1177: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sdplayer [As Ah]
Ed95Pont: folds
treeguy: folds
airgun1: folds
lumina: folds
sdplayer: raises 40 to 60
Serge58: folds
Flashheart: folds
Wood: calls 50
papatony1177: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [4c Qh Kc]
Wood: checks
papatony1177: bets 20
sdplayer: raises 80 to 100
Wood: calls 100
papatony1177: folds
*** TURN *** [4c Qh Kc] [9s]
Wood: checks
sdplayer: bets 160
Wood: folds
sdplayer collected 400 from pot
sdplayer: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 400 | Rake 0
Board [4c Qh Kc 9s]
Seat 1: Flashheart (button) folded before Flop (didn't
bet)
Seat 2: Wood (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: papatony1177 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Ed95Pont folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: treeguy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: airgun1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: lumina folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: sdplayer collected (400)
Seat 9: Serge58 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[davidross]

I think your strategy is the same one most of the "sane" good players adopt. Try and stay alive until the important rounds arrive and hope to get good cards then. I think though that the truly great tournament players are part of the "super aggressive" breed (although none of them are playing $20 Paradise tournies).

During the WSOP promotion I played a bunch of tournies extremely aggressively (somewhat selectively though), I was all-in many many times in the early rounds and several times built a big stack. It was a real eye-opener how you can dominate a table with a large stack. I was doing it to accumulate points and didn't really care if I lost, but I won almost every time I made the money. On the other hand I got knocked out early more than normal too. On the Sunday showdown I reverted to the cautious approach and had my JJ lose to QQ.
I think there are two different ways to approach these tournaments and you need to choose the one that suits your style. When I was playing super aggressive (And I never went all in without an A or a pair) I was amazed what people called my pre-flop all-ins with (Q7s K4o). I think they decide you are bluffing everytime.

[eMarkM]

I do limp quite a bit. I will limp with all kinds of suited connectors, small pairs and such, even up front. But typical S&M standard stuff and then hope I get hit by the flop hard. I agree, the implied odds are huge in such situations. Haven't limped in EP with a hand like K2s, though. Do you basically limp with any suited? Maybe from my limit experience I find that to be too much. But I'll try to loosen up more in limping situations on the 5/10-10/20 rounds.

[Bubmack]

Yes, I think your limping standards can be much lower in the first two rounds. I wouldn't limp with any two suited rags, but with suited aces and kings - I think your in good shape, due to the impled odds. Maybe also some one gap connectors too, say a hand like J,9o or 7,9o in the first round.

And you can obviously be more liberal with position.

Bubs