How do you play?

[SoBeDude]

You're in the BB with 56s. It is folded around to the button who open-raises. SB folds.

Do you fold or call?

Thanks in advance for all input!

-Scott

[RockLobster]

Hey Scott--

If the button is a proven thief, I reraise. Otherwise, I fold.

[SoBeDude]

I guess my problem here is how playable is 56s headsup out of position?

He could have crap, but odds are he has bigger cards than I.

A hand like 56s plays well in late position with multiple callers. This hand I have neither.

-Scott

[Tommy Angelo]

"You're in the BB with 56s. It is folded around to the button who open-raises. SB folds. Do you fold or call?"

I would never and I mean never call. I would fold or reraise.

Tommy

[ACPlayer]

he is suggesting a re-steal. re-raise pre-flop, bet any flop which should miss the thief two thirds of the time. Use judgement if called on the flop on whether to continue bluffing on the turn. Of course you will hit a pair about one third of the time and have a draw some of the time.

Alternately, call preflop, check call the flop and bet out on the turn. Also can check raise the flop, etc, etc. The game here is who will lay down the hand first.

Risky strategies tho. Work out the odds of each strategy.

[RockLobster]

[J.R.]

This is a routine fold absent other considerations (aggressive/ weak-tight nature of the raiser, your image, how other players are playing you, etc)

[LondonBroil]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I would never and I mean never call. I would fold or reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't poker players could use the words 'never' and 'always'.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I didn't [think] poker players could use the words 'never' and 'always'."

I always have and I will never stop.

Tommy

[bernie]

doesnt this assume the raiser knows how to steal and play a shorthanded pot? what if he has a likelihood of only raising with premium otherwise he'd let the blinds chop?

id take this into consideration before putting too much into this hand. id need more info to reraise this player. im not into reraising an unknown player unless i have 'some' read on his LP play.

b

[bernie]

"I didn't poker players could use the words 'never' and 'always'."

that would be in playing a hand only 1 way and only 1 way. tommy is suggesting 2 options. not 1 absolute option.

i happen to agree. i would never call this either. well, maybe i would at one time /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

b

[ACPlayer]

Yes, that is why these are risky strategies.

My personal preferred solution is as follows:

if the game is very good, save my chips for situations with bigger overlays and fold quietly.

if the game is tough, tight so that the stealing happens a lot then this strategy may have to happen. In this case i equally quietly pick up my chips and move to the excellent stud or omaha/8 game on the next table - or order a fruit plate with the money and watch the baseball game on TV. You never know you might learn how to steal watching baseball.

[PokerPrince]

Fold to the steal-raise. It's just not enough hand to be playing headsup and out of position. Totally different if the SB called though.

PokerPrince

[SoBeDude]

I would never call here either. but I think I'd fold at LEAST 90% of the time.

how would you break down the fold/re-raise percentage?

-Scott

[Tommy Angelo]

"how would you break down the fold/re-raise percentage?"

I would fold 98% of the time.

[mike l.]

i would reraise against buttons who had at least a small chance of folding for that one more bet without seeing the flop.

in other words, i might reraise this hand from my bb against tommy.

[Dynasty]

I call. Folding and 3-betting are way behind as 2nd best options.

[SoBeDude]

are you serious?

(If you are, you forgot to end the post with "Do you see why?")

[Dynasty]

I'm serious and was surprised to see so many raise or fold responses.

3-betting with this hand doesn't feel right. I'd rather 3-bet with a hand that has showdown value like a weak Ace-high (A9o) or medium pocket pair (77). I 3-bet with better hands too simply because I'm sure I've got the best hand.

Folding doesn't look good either. Too much folding invites more stealing. 65s is a decent defending hand. You've got a good chance to flop a draw or a pair. By just calling pre-flop, you give yourself many more options post-flop.

You don't have to defend you big blind against a late position steal by 3-betting everytime. There are plenty of hands which are worth a meager call. Suited connectors fit that play perfectly.

[SoBeDude]

I see what you're saying.

My problem with the hand is I have to be an underdog preflop, and I have to hit to win. And even if I do hit, I could easily still lose if they hit as well. And I'll never have the odds to properly call out to a draw...

It just seems I should save my blind defense for a better hand, no?

-Scott

[Dynasty]

My problem with the hand is I have to be an underdog preflop

You'll bet getting 3.5:1 to call. You're not that big an underdog. Besides, being an underdog is rarely a reason not to play a hand.

And I'll never have the odds to properly call out to a draw...

Let's say you've got 6h5h and the flop is Ah,9d,2h. Assuming you won't win by making a pair (a big assumption you shouldn't make), you've got the odds to call a flop bet drawing to nothing but your flush. If the flop action, goes check, bet, call, your call will bet getting 5.5:1 drawing to a 4.2:1 shot on the next card. On the turn, you will be getting 4.25:1. As a general rule, you always have the odds to draw to a flush for one bet on each street, even heads-up. The added possibility of winning with a measly pair of 5's made on the river makes playing on certain.

Of course, you don't have to make a hand. If you check-raise that flop and bet the turn, you may win without a showdown.

[Duke]

Make the hand 24o and consider that the raise is an obvious steal with a weak hand. You re-raise, let HIM call, and bet out on the flop. If it missed him, you take it down. If not, well, maybe it hit you.

Get the re-steal over quickly some of the time. If not, you can do your call, cr the flop, and bet the turn. That'll win it from some players, unless they are the curious type who will then call out of confusion.

If you can't read the player in question, I'll agree with your play on the hand.

I guess it really depends on how well you know the player, and what the limit is. Would you re-raise with a premium holding? Is this going to tell your opponent something about how you play? You call with 56s and re-raise with AKs?

FPS? Maybe. I don't think that they plays are set in stone, though.

~D

[Dynasty]

Make the hand 24o and consider that the raise is an obvious steal with a weak hand. You re-raise

No, you still fold.

[hot tub man # 1]

I think suggesting a call might be bad advice for most players. I can see smooth calling out of the small blind maybe, if there is a very good chance the big blind is also going to enter the pot. But to just call out of the BB, and play heads up out of position agaist a player who has shown strength before the flop with six high sounds bad to me.

Some people play well enough post flop to make that call. But reality is, there arn't too many of them, and most players will be asking for trouble making this play in my opinion. I fold this hand 90 perecent of the time out of both blinds.

[Vehn]

You people are weird. I call 99% of the time.

[SoBeDude]

Make the hand 24o and consider that the raise is an obvious steal with a weak hand. You re-raise, let HIM call, and bet out on the flop.

Against a weaker opponent I think your reraise with just about anything is a good plan. You'll gain control of the hand and when you bet out it'll be harder for the thief to call with nothing.

But I'd say many opponents (especially 2+2ers) would immediately re-raise your re-raise to keep control of the hand. Against this tougher opponent you'll be dumping a ton of money in a hand out of position with still no idea where you stand in the hand even if you do get a piece of the flop.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

ok. you call 99% of the time.

Why?

and, then what?

-Scott

[andyfox]

"I can see smooth calling out of the small blind maybe, if there is a very good chance the big blind is also going to enter the pot."

As you say, playing out of position against a player who has showed strength pre-flop with 6 high sounds bad. Playing out of position with 6 high against two players sounds worse to me.

[hot tub man # 1]

As you say, playing out of position against a player who has showed strength pre-flop with 6 high sounds bad. Playing out of position with 6 high against two players sounds worse to me.

Point taken, and I think it stinks either way for all but the best best players agaist a raise from an over aggresive player. Still, I would rather play a tiny suited connector agaist two oppenents rather one, three opponents rather than two, and so on. This is not a heads up hand, which is why these hands should be mucked in this situation and in short handed games in my opinion. Give me the ace of hearts and the two of spades and I'll feel better about playing heads up agaist a bad button raiser.

[Karatitis]

If the rasier is unknown to me, and he hasn't been raising every hand like a maniac, I would fold.

However, if I knew the player as being a frequent stealer, and not just with premium hands, and if this raiser knew me to be a "tight" player, then I occassionally would 3-bet him and bet out on the flop no matter what hits, and hope that it misses him. If he calls, well then it's decision time on the turn, but probably have to bet again and hope that he's folding as often seems to happen in my experience.

Even in this scenario playing this hand out of position is really gambling quite a bit. My opinion on this hand depends on whether or not I know the opponent, how aggressive he is, and how soft/tough he/she plays after the flop. Also, very important is his/her knowledge of how I play. Does he think I Play squeaky-tight, and therefore, he's raising now with anything since he figures I'm folding unless I have a big buried pair?

But as most posters on 2+2 seem to indicate... folding is better, and save your chips and your psyche for more favourable conditions. If the game is such that this is happening often, the best way to play is to not post your next big blind, rack up your chips and quietly slink off and scout another game, or hit the bar and watch the hockey game.

Chris X.

[Karatitis]

Dynasty,

Your answer is interesting, in that I agree with your analysis about 3-betting with show-down value hands such as a small buried pair or A-high, K-high, but only to the extent that the opponent plays weakly or passively after the flop. Calling with 5-6suited or not misses the flop probably much more often than it will miss him, and you will be out of position.

Again, we don't have much information to go on, so we'll assume that the player is unknown. Even if we're suspicious and smell a steal, he/she probably knows to keep betitng after the flop, and so, unless you flop something very good it's really just gambling to raise, but calling must be even worse as it shows passive weakness, unless we then play the flop hyper-aggressive with a check-raise, or betting out on the turn, thus committing even more chips than with the pre-flop raise.

The plan in 3-betting is really to set up a flop bet, and just hope to pick up the pot when the flop misses him.


Chris X.

[Vehn]

Because a large enough portion of the time you'll flop a pair or a draw compared to the size of the pot. Enough of a time to make it profitable to call getting 3.5:1. If I do not flop a pair or draw I will frequently check-fold if my opponent is mildly skilled. I don't understand what there is to discuss. You don't have to fight tooth and nail for every pot you're in or every time your blind is raised and you have a medium/low strength hand. In fact I would rather have 65s here than K8 or Q9. I suppose you can fold if you're really that uncomfortable but I think 3-betting is a significant mistake.

p.s. I would fold this almost all the time in the small blind.

[Dynasty]

a large enough portion of the time you'll flop a pair or a draw compared to the size of the pot. Enough of a time to make it profitable to call getting 3.5:1. If I do not flop a pair or draw I will frequently check-fold if my opponent is mildly skilled.

Ditto- except I don't need my opponent to have any skills in order to check fold after missing the flop.

I'm really surprised by how many people want to fold 65s here and how adamant they are. Calling really seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Munga30]

You certainly have enough equity that calling looks ok.

<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr>Monte carlo simulation results from Poker Calculator 1.1.4
Texas Hold'em, 100000 combinations tested.

Hand 1:
6c5c

Hand 2:
Range of hands: AA , KK , QQ , JJ , TT , 99 , 88 , 77
66 , 55 , 44 , 33 , 22 , AKs, AQs, AJs
ATs, A9s, A8s, A7s, A6s, A5s, A4s, A3s
A2s, KQs, KJs, KTs, K9s, K8s, K7s, K6s
K5s, K4s, K3s, K2s, QJs, QTs, Q9s, Q8s
JTs, J9s, J8s, J7s, T9s, T8s, T7s, 98s
97s, 87s, 86s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AKo, AQo
AJo, ATo, A9o, A8o, A7o, A6o, A5o, A4o
A3o, A2o, KQo, KJo, KTo, K9o, K8o, K7o
K6o, K5o, K4o, K3o, K2o, QJo, QTo, Q9o
Q8o, JTo, J9o, J8o, T9o, T8o, 98o, 87o

Hand | 1 | 2 |
------+--------------+--------------+
Win | 38481 | 59722 |
Draw | 1797 | 1797 |
Lose | 59722 | 38481 |
------+--------------+--------------+
Win% | 39.38% | 60.62% |
------+--------------+--------------+


Hand no.1:
High Card win: 40 draw: 101 lose: 15276
Pair win: 8498 draw: 388 lose: 31639
Two Pair win: 11625 draw: 547 lose: 9778
Three of a Kind win: 2778 draw: 57 lose: 1545
Straight win: 7830 draw: 422 lose: 717
Flush win: 5543 draw: 136 lose: 521
Full House win: 1890 draw: 137 lose: 223
Quads win: 111 draw: 7 lose: 23
Straight Flush win: 166 draw: 2 lose: 0


Hand no.2:
High Card win: 3832 draw: 101 lose: 12224
Pair win: 23941 draw: 388 lose: 18667
Two Pair win: 18250 draw: 547 lose: 5871
Three of a Kind win: 4169 draw: 57 lose: 1032
Straight win: 3632 draw: 422 lose: 510
Flush win: 2973 draw: 136 lose: 91
Full House win: 2664 draw: 137 lose: 86
Quads win: 229 draw: 7 lose: 0
Straight Flush win: 32 draw: 2 lose: 0
</pre><hr>

[Tommy Angelo]

"I'm really surprised by how many people want to fold 65s here and how adamant they are."

I would fold, but I am not adamant about it. Just the opposite. I think everyone else in the world should always call with 65. :-)

Tommy