dealing with minraises against your BB @ later levels (55s)

[ir0nphist]

It seems like this happens ALL the time:

(Hypothetical hand)
Blinds 100/200

UTG 2000
Button 4000
SB 2000
BB (Hero) 2000

Hero is dealt (4h 8h)
UTG folds, Button miraises to 400, SB folds, Hero ??

I absolutely hate this position. At times I will resteal all-in, but I don't like that as my standard line. Especially if I've been aggressive lately, which is usually the case by this point.
The problem here is that I am getting 3.5:1 on the call, so it seems weak to fold, but it's hard to play much post flop at this point in the tourney.

[Raemius]

I like to call here, and being first to act, bet out about 1/2 the pot no matter what the flop.

I'd like to hear some input on this as well.

[Hornacek]

I fold.

With 4-8o, I'm nearly certain he has you beat anyways... why bother playing this hand out of position, and not sure what kind of flop is good for you? For example, a flop like 5-8-J, are you good? You can make a probe bet, but when it comes down to it, you might be risking an awful amount of chips on a VERY marginal hand. Fold, and wait for a better opportunity. Just let this one go.

~Hornacek.

[Raemius]

If this is a common occurance, I would think it's a steal, even if it's a min raise. Obviously, if played back post flop, you gotta fold, but most of the time, you will win the pot post flop by showing agression, especially on bubble play.

You may be certain he has you beat, but he doesn't know that.

[ir0nphist]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to call here, and being first to act, bet out about 1/2 the pot no matter what the flop.

I'd like to hear some input on this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like this line best, and it has been what I've been trying more of late w/ decent success. Of course when it doesn't work, I end up kicking myself for squandering away 1/2 my stack w/ a hand like 84s.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to call here, and being first to act, bet out about 1/2 the pot no matter what the flop.

I'd like to hear some input on this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like this line best, and it has been what I've been trying more of late w/ decent success. Of course when it doesn't work, I end up kicking myself for squandering away 1/2 my stack w/ a hand like 84s.

[/ QUOTE ]
especially since its on the bubble, and you're not short-stacked at all... why risk more chips with an even more marginal hand?

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
why risk more chips with an even more marginal hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because THAT's GOOD poker.

[Raemius]

Even if your bet is called, you still have $1200 left, not quite dead. I'd rather make a stand and make villain think twice before trying to steal my blind again. Plus, if he folds to your bet on the flop (I'd say there is a >50% chance of this), you've got $2900, one hand away from being chip leader.

If you fold you have $1800, and next time you have the blind with a crap hand, you'll get raised again.

[Isura]

YOu have to defend a lot more at the 55s, but I would just let this go.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to call here, and being first to act, bet out about 1/2 the pot no matter what the flop.

I'd like to hear some input on this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible imo. You have < 10bb after posting, and if your continuation/probe bet fails, you have just lost almost 1/2 of your stack. If you want to make a stand, push over the top and take it down. This kind of weak blind defense is really easy to pick up on and play back at.

[applejuicekid]

I would definitely call preflop, and then decide how I'm going to play the flop based on the flop texture and opponent. On most flops I'd lead out with a bet. If I flop a draw I will check raise. If the flop comes really nasty, check-fold.

[applejuicekid]

I think calling is much better than coming over the top. A typical button will call your all in with a lot of hands. Also, if he does happen to have a monster you can get away from it by just calling and playing the flop. Most times he will fold to your bet on the flop when his A3 doesn't hit anything.

[ir0nphist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to call here, and being first to act, bet out about 1/2 the pot no matter what the flop.

I'd like to hear some input on this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible imo. You have < 10bb after posting, and if your continuation/probe bet fails, you have just lost almost 1/2 of your stack. If you want to make a stand, push over the top and take it down. This kind of weak blind defense is really easy to pick up on and play back at.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as coming over the top. . . let's say you've just pushed 2 of the last 4 hands. . . that makes me less inclined to push here, figuring big stack might look me up.

I disagree with your point about this being weak blind defense. . . I think this is quite the contrary. It would be weak to call the raise, then check/fold to the raiser, but by leading out I think we win this pot often enough to make it profitable, PLUS discourage future steals.


Think of it like this. . . When you steal w/ more than 10BB's, do YOU minraise? Why not? Isn't it because you don't want to give the BB odds to call w/ any 2? So if it's the other way around. . . shouldn't you use your opponent's mistake against him?

[Raemius]

Absolutely right, you will win the pot often enough to make this play profitable. Occasionally, you will run into a hand and have to let it go, but villain is not going to call your flop bet unless he has hit. You need to take that chance.

Pre-flop you are ony a 65% to 35% underdog to A-K if you hold 8-4 offsuit, so even the preflop call is ok.

[Raemius]

However, if he lays it down this time on the flop, the next time he does this he will have a hand he's willing to push with.

Unless he's a donk, but by this time you should have a read on him.

[Homer315]

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely right, you will win the pot often enough to make this play profitable. Occasionally, you will run into a hand and have to let it go, but villain is not going to call your flop bet unless he has hit. You need to take that chance.

Pre-flop you are ony a 65% to 35% underdog to A-K if you hold 8-4 offsuit, so even the preflop call is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have to call you out on your logic in the last part of your post. being a 65/35 dog preflop does not justify you calling the PF raise. You're a 65/35 dog for the entire hand. If by calling, you were all-in, and would get to see the river, then you may be getting the right odds. You can't use those numbers and ignore the imminent post flop bets you would have to call.

[AliasMrJones]

With your worthless hand here, I'd let this go without a second though. If it continues, re-steal push.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely right, you will win the pot often enough to make this play profitable. Occasionally, you will run into a hand and have to let it go, but villain is not going to call your flop bet unless he has hit. You need to take that chance.

Pre-flop you are ony a 65% to 35% underdog to A-K if you hold 8-4 offsuit, so even the preflop call is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems that you are assuming that the button is minraising with any 2 in this spot, and will always lay down without a pair. What happens when he has overcards, or a draw, and decided to see a turn since he has enough chips?

And being a 35% underdog to AK makes the preflop call okay, what??? What about the rest of his hand range, and the fact that you're out of position.

[Raemius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely right, you will win the pot often enough to make this play profitable. Occasionally, you will run into a hand and have to let it go, but villain is not going to call your flop bet unless he has hit. You need to take that chance.

Pre-flop you are ony a 65% to 35% underdog to A-K if you hold 8-4 offsuit, so even the preflop call is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have to call you out on your logic in the last part of your post. being a 65/35 dog preflop does not justify you calling the PF raise. You're a 65/35 dog for the entire hand. If by calling, you were all-in, and would get to see the river, then you may be getting the right odds. You can't use those numbers and ignore the imminent post flop bets you would have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can still hit your hand. If the flop were to come something like 8-2-10, you are likely ahead. You're probably even ahead on something like 10-7-4.

Also, to have called a raise shows strength, a willingness to play, he doesn't know what you have, make him pay to find out. You go all-in, it's an "I hope you go away" move.

Obviously, more than one way to play this.

[Raemius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely right, you will win the pot often enough to make this play profitable. Occasionally, you will run into a hand and have to let it go, but villain is not going to call your flop bet unless he has hit. You need to take that chance.

Pre-flop you are ony a 65% to 35% underdog to A-K if you hold 8-4 offsuit, so even the preflop call is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems that you are assuming that the button is minraising with any 2 in this spot, and will always lay down without a pair. What happens when he has overcards, or a draw, and decided to see a turn since he has enough chips?

And being a 35% underdog to AK makes the preflop call okay, what??? What about the rest of his hand range, and the fact that you're out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a draw or overcards, then it is a mistake for him to call the flop.

The AK was an example, he could have anything, from AA-72, but A-K is just something I used as an example.

Like the OP said, this is a common ocurrance. He could be raising with any two cards just to steal the blinds at this stage, and to wittle his opponents down.

Good discussion, that's why poker's fun, everyone plays different.

[ravensfan]

Although I'm still playing on low levels, to me it seems like it would depend a lot on your table image in relation to the villian at this point. If he's consistenly forced you out, then wouldn't coming back hard this time represent strength? Wouldn't this also be a good way to set him up for the next hand when you play a monster identically? (yes, i'd be willing to simply call with AQ and pray that a King doesn't come up if he thought i'd bluff into him)

Alternatively, can't you reraise villian PF? This should show the strength you need as well as showing that you're willing to play. Next time he thinks of raising he'll likely remember this hand and how you defended your blind. Even if you don't take the hand down, this might be enough to get you some free draws in the future.

If you have a LAG image at the table, as mentioned by OP, I can't see why he'd minbet into you unless it was a value bet, in which case an 84o is likely a good hand to fold... or smooth call and hope you hit the nuts and check/fold on the flop, maybe to lead out or c/r on the turn if you sense you can take the hand.

Please flame me and expose any flaws... I'm still trying to work on my bubble play...

[AliasMrJones]

Any of youse guys that are advocating anything other than push or fold are wrong.

After you post, you have less than 10xBB. 2 out of the other 3 players have 10xBB. You do not have enough chips to be farting around with "plays".

Pushing here does not send the message that you don't want to be called. It puts the pressure back on Mr. min-raiser because getting you to fold is no longer an option. He knows he must beat your hand.

Here, your hand is very weak, you aren't in immediate danger of blinding out and 2 out of the other 3 players are in roughly the same shape as you are. This is a clear fold.

As I said before, if the min-raise happens again next orbit and you get a halfway decent hand, push.