K8o, HU OOP

[Womble]

Hate this situation, the preflop raise is standard (I think) and the continuation bet on the flop. I get to the turn and get confused, when I check and its bet I dont know if they are making a move or not.It was easy to fold to the raise but should I have even be betting in the first place?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

[Vaftrudner]

Rough, I vary my play here a LOT depending on my opponent and my image. Raise some, limp some, and fold some if my image sux big time and I can't hit nothing. Nothing to say about this hand I think, bet/fold the turn. Check/fold the turn. Next hand. /v

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
but should I have even be betting in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

this prob. depends on your opponent. if he'll call down with any hand, then maybe not. if he's capable of folding and his image of YOU isn't LAG, then yes.

[einbert]

In these types of situations (SB vs BB in particular), reads are absolutely essential. They will very much make or break your WR in these kinds of hands.

With the information you've given (that this was an unknown player who played 1/2 6max), I have to come to the conclusion that you played this hand perfectly. Many of these players will peel that flop with about any two cards, and it would be a mistake to give a free card with what is the best hand a big chunk of the time on the turn. But I think when he raises the turn, although you are ahead some of the time, you do not have the proper pot odds to call down.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing to say about this hand I think, bet/fold the turn. Check/fold the turn. Next hand. /v

[/ QUOTE ]

This type of thinking is absolutely killing this forum. Sorry, not trying to pick on you in particular V, but this kind of thinking/analysis is awful and generates simplistic thinking patterns that are very harmful to our development as players.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, these SB vs BB hands are frequently extremely difficult (especially from the SB, and especially vs unknowns) but just because they take a lot of thought to analyze doesn't mean that we should just come up with the first quick answer that pops into our head, or simply act randomly.

[Vaftrudner]

C'mon, you lifted that out of it's context? I said that it's impossible to know without knowing your opponent. And without that info it's a very, very hard hand to play. And that bet/fold the turn or check/fold the turn are viable options. no? /v

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
And without that info it's a very, very hard hand to play. And that bet/fold the turn or check/fold the turn are viable options.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with all of this, but I was only trying to say that we can put enough effort into this hand to come up with the correct answer between checking and bet/folding the turn (and I'm not 100% convinced that check/calling is wrong, although I still lean towards bet/folding--but I haven't really analyzed it at all and am not sure exactly how to do it).

[DMBFan23]

I've started checkraising the turn a LOT when I hit and I've led the flop because this happens to me a lot. I know they're floating but what can I do really with K high. a good A high I can think about calling down. I still get bet into when I don't have it, but that's ok because I get to c/r a lot.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I've started checkraising the turn a LOT when I hit and I've led the flop because this happens to me a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

But this move works much better at 10/20 than at 5/10, much better at 5/10 than at 3/6, and etc. So I'm not sure I'm too crazy about it at 1/2. I haven't played 1/2 any time recently though, so who knows.

[DMBFan23]

yeah, true. that's been my respnse at 5/10 where I still get folds on enough flops that I don't want to fold K8o just yet, though I've been tightening up on these SB plays a lot. the correst answer at 1/2 where you have such little fold equity may be to tighten up pre and postflop and tend to play hands that have showdown value, and also mix in checks on flop and turn (both when you hit, to maybe c/r, and when you miss, to c/fold) and see how they react to get some reads. I dont know 1/2 players that well, so if they tend to bluff or tend to keep calling with a worse hand, then you can adjust accordingly. personally, I find I induce a lot of bluffs, and value bets from worse hands this way. YMMV.

of course you still have to bet the turn too because you'll want to bet-3bet a lot, and you'll want to bet some semibluffs and some hands that might be best but you're willing to fold to a raise. I'm mixing up which hands I put in which bins right now in my head and to a small extent when I play, tending to use HPFAP's guidelines to guide my thought, but also the hands I've played as well.

also I open complete a fair amount and it's nice. I haven't mixed in the limp reraising yet because I dont get auto-raised. also I am almost sure I am too weak tight in the BB. I need to work on my SB vs BB play more, from both sides.