folding a set or 2 pair

I am a newbie no doubt, so forgive me if this a redundant question.
Should I fold my set or two pair hoping to make a boat or should I call all bets looking to hit? It seems to be a losing proposition so I wanted to ask the experts. Thanks.

[Ironman]

That's too broad a question. As I'm sure the rest of the group agrees, there are times when I am folding my two pair and times when I'm raising with it.

One of the most important things you can remember in this game is that chasing can get you in trouble. So what you really want is a hand with top set that can get better. What you don't want to do is play your top set (hoping that it becomes a boat) when there is a made straight or flush on the board.

Or....you have a nut low and you have a marginal high hand, you might consider raising that to put the fear of god into anyone with a non nut high hand.

I'm not saying that it is always bad to chase, but it is better to chase from a position of strength. We call those redraws...and they are wonderful.

Dave

Wow, what a terrific and insightful reply! So much great information. I hate to admit it, but there is a lot there that I hadn’t thought about. I love to play Omaha, but there is a great deal I need to learn. I’m reading as much as I can and trying to learn, but it is difficult.
Are you constantly counting outs? I know that there have been times when I have had a straight wrap with a flush draw and had like 20 outs and felt pretty good. Are you just constantly looking for these opportunities? They really don’t happen very often. It seems like there are times when I don’t see a decent hand for a long, long time. I’ve been playing in the sit&go’s to try and learn and get experience while limiting my liability and it has been eye opening!

Thank you again for such a great reply.

[Ironman]

I am not constantly counting outs.

What I am doing (when playing limit...it's a little different when playing pot limit) is looking for a reason to fold preflop.

I know...it's counter intuitive, but I have found that the marginal hands cost me money because they put you in a position where you have to make the difficult decisions that you are worried about.

Things like flopping two pair in late position with a bet and a raise in front of you. Do you continue to play even though you are probably up against a nut low and a set?

Once I get in a hand, I am looking for reasons to raise (mostly has to do with position) but keep people drawing when they shouldn't.

Buzz had a great post on this awhile back.

And watch out for your small blind. Don't feel that you have to defend it all the time when playing online. Those are trouble hands.

Hope this helps a little more.

Dave

[Buzz]

Kwhit - Try the following.
(1) Take J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif out of a deck of cards and set them aside to represent the flop.
(2) Shuffle the remaining cards and deal out ten four card hands.
(3) Any hand with a king and queen has flopped the nut straight.
Any hand with a queen and eight has flopped the 2nd nut straight.
Any hand with an eight and a seven has flopped the 3rd nut straight. Go from one hand to the next, seeing if that hand has a straight. Put a blue chip (or a quarter) on the table for a nut straight, a red chip (or a dime) on the table for a 2nd nut straight, and a white chip (or a nickle) on the table for a 3rd nut straight. if there is more than one hand with a straight, stack the chips on top of each other.
(4) Keep the J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif set aside, reshuffle the other 49 cards, and deal out another ten four card hands.
(5) Look from one hand to the next and make a second pile of chips, blue for nut straight, red for 2nd nut straight, and white for 3rd nut straight.
(6) Repeat this process exactly ten times.

I just did it (the process) exactly ten times. Here’s the result:
first trial............blue, blue
second trial.......blue, red, white
third trial...........none
fourth trial.........blue, white
fifth trial............red
sixth trial...........blue
seventh trial.....red, red, white
eighth trial........blue
ninth trial..........white
tenth trial..........blue, red

Your ten trials probably won’t be the same as mine, but you’ll probably see a straight more often than not, and maybe roughly half the time there will be more than one straight. Probably roughly half the time there will be a nut straight. Some of the time there will probably be more than one nut straight. Some of the time the second nut straight will be the best hand after the flop and some of the time the third nut straight will probably be the best hand after the flop.

Now let’s suppose you hold A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, you decide to see the flop and the flop is J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You had a nice starting hand and now have flopped bottom set.

You could go through the same sort of drill as above, taking your own cards and the flop cards out of the deck, and shuffling and dealing the remaining cards ten times. But you know what? Why don’t I just run that simulation for you. and I’ll do it ten thousand times instead of ten times. And we’ll let the simulator also deal out the turn and river cards. How do you think your flopped bottom set will fare?

While we’re at it, how about if we also do a similar simulation (10000 times) for middle set and also one (10000 times) for top set. One small change. I’m going to run the simulations for nine players rather than ten players, because nine is the number of players in Los Angeles area casino ring games. Wouldn’t be substantially different (a bit worse for the flopped sets) for ten players.

Hand: A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif......Flop J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
results: scoops 1682 times, .... loses 8318 times
trips: scoop 86 times, .... lose 6568 times
full house: scoop 1176 times, .... lose 1748 times
quads: scoop 420 times, .... lose 2 times

Hand: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif......Flop J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
results: scoops 2314 times, .... loses 7686 times
trips: scoop 109 times, .... lose 6468 times
full house: scoop 1761 times, .... lose 1217 times
quads: scoop 444 times, .... lose 1 time

Hand: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif......Flop J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
results: scoops 3106 times, .... loses 6894 times
trips: scoop 130 times, .... lose 6466 times
full house: scoop 2565 times, .... lose 428 times
quads: scoop 411 times, .... lose 0 times

Actually, all these hands will win more often than shown above. That’s because some opponents will fold hands that would have made straights, especially non-nut straights.

Of course, these hands will do better with some other flops than this particular flop. But maybe the above sim results put things better in perspective for you.

There are different kinds of sets, and different kinds of two pair hands, and how they fare depends on exactly what they are, what the flop, turn and river are - on what cards your opponents hold, on how they play their cards - and on how you play your cards.

Enough.

Buzz

Thank you Buzz for your excellent post. There is a great deal of information there that I am going to have to digest. I’m also going to follow Ironman’s suggestion and look at some of your earlier posts to learn as much as I can.
When I first started playing I only played the premium hands, like AA23, KKQQ or AK23. But I found that I wasn’t playing at all, so I got a little looser and looser and next thing I know I’m chasing after hands all over the place. What makes it much worse is when I fold top set because to board has paired or three connected cards come and see someone take high with two pair! Then it makes me call things I shouldn’t because I think I’m playing with idiots.

Do you guys strictly play only the premium starting hands or are there exceptions?