Basic QQ preflop problem

[Marlow]

6 max 2-4

Hero (~400) who is only 15 hands into session opens for 14. Folded to button (~375) who raises pot (50ish total)

Button has been pretty quiet for the first 15 hands. So has hero.

Ick. I can't find one appealing option. What's the usual plan here?

Marlow

[AZK]

call, see a flop, play poker.

[Marlow]

I should have specified that I never considered folding. This seemed too out of the question to even exclude in the OP.

I'm torn here between reraising and calling. I did, in fact call here, though I wondered if I had anything to gain by potting this.

Marlow

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have specified that I never considered folding. This seemed too out of the question to even exclude in the OP.

I'm torn here between reraising and calling. I did, in fact call here, though I wondered if I had anything to gain by potting this.

Marlow

[/ QUOTE ]

3-betting QQ preflop in a cash game is, in general, a big mistake.

[flawless_victory]

id fold.

[Leptyne]

In general it takes a stronger hand to re-raise than to open-raise. This means a couple of things. You have a much wider range of hands that the Button, and Button should have at least AA, KK, QQ, AKs. Of course the range could be wider, or much wider.

It's just a preflop re-raise. It's not like he insulted your mother. You're very likely behind, could be ahead, but call, see if you can find fame and fortune in the flop.

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
id fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is suprising, but very good to know that some people take this route.

Thanks,

Marlow

[gomberg]

w/out a read, i could see this possibly being a fold - but not sure what I'd do in heat of battle. Seems like it will be a very marginal to -EV play vs. a standard 2-4 reraiser.

[fimbulwinter]

if you have reads, this can be the easiest fold ever. against an unknown, no way i fold.

fim

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
f you have reads, this can be the easiest fold ever. against an unknown, no way i fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ this statement at 5-10 and up. But when I used to play 2-4, a vast majority of reraises were AA-QQ,AK (even AK wasn't that likely). This may be different now but that was my experience when I played that level like over a year ago.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
f you have reads, this can be the easiest fold ever. against an unknown, no way i fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ this statement at 5-10 and up. But when I used to play 2-4, a vast majority of reraises were AA-QQ,AK (even AK wasn't that likely). This may be different now but that was my experience when I played that level like over a year ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you missed the point.

even if the hand range is the above, i call against a player i don't know. get it?

fim

[KCFire105]

I agree. Your behind. Fold the hand. Next thing you know, you'll start called reraises w/ a-j off.

[gomberg]

ok - it's been a long day at work and I feel dumb. Lay it out...

I'm guessing you're going to say something about meta-game, outplaying, odds, etc.? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
ok - it's been a long day at work and I feel dumb. Lay it out...

I'm guessing you're going to say something about meta-game, outplaying, odds, etc.? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

well, on the most basal level we're calling 35 getting 2:1 and he has about 340 left behind, so if we're losing money long-term here playing strictly for set value, it is an infintecimal amount of money. the metagame aspects of calling this raise alone (which really "costs" maybe 1BB LT) are well well worth not facing a lot of 3bets oop when you don't have a maniacal image.

also, a lot of 400 players from what i recall will really dog AK here if called. im talking 1/8 pot on flop and check it down from there.

basically the siutation is this: if he HAS to have AA/KK all the time, calling is a loser in the smallest way. ed miller went over the metagame importnace of making a few loose early street calls in SSHE, same thing applies here. this is kind of why i said i'd need a read to fold; if it's someone who has played with me 5000 hands, i don't care about trying to change their read. OTOH, you never get a second chance to make a first impression...

fim

[gomberg]

Thanks, makes sense - I thought the raise was $50 more ($35 more I call almost every time), which would make it a little more of a mistake, but I get your point...

[Big_Jim]

Hmmm..

You gotta call $35 to play a $106 pot. You only need to get a pot bet and raise on the flop to have set odds, so you gotta at least call.

The question, of course.... is what you do when the flop comes 227r.

I think I c/r all in every time (with <100 BBs).

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm..

You gotta call $35 to play a $106 pot. You only need to get a pot bet and raise on the flop to have set odds, so you gotta at least call.

The question, of course.... is what you do when the flop comes 227r.

I think I c/r all in every time (with <100 BBs).

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my reasoning and my line. He called my CR on a T high board and showed down KK. I did not improve.

Marlow

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm..

You gotta call $35 to play a $106 pot. You only need to get a pot bet and raise on the flop to have set odds, so you gotta at least call.

The question, of course.... is what you do when the flop comes 227r.

I think I c/r all in every time (with <100 BBs).

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my reasoning and my line. He called my CR on a T high board and showed down KK. I did not improve.

Marlow

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, i really don't like this line.

fim

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, i really don't like this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

What line DO you like? Check/fold? Bet/fold?