400 NL Squeeze play

[Heimdal]

400NL 10-handed. I start with $390. Other players cover.
One limper and very aggressive MP raises to $20. HJ (tight) and CO (loose) call. There is $70 in the pot when it gets to me on button. I raise to $80 with 98o. Good or bad?

[Marlow]

What's your image?

In a vacumm, this seems bad to me. People at 2-4 hate to fold pre-flop.

Marlow

[Heimdal]

I have been playing tight if anyone is paying attention

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
People at 2-4 hate to fold pre-flop.

Marlow

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more. If this it the Party 2/4, people love to fold preflop. And if they don't fold then, they REALLY love to fold on the flop.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
400NL 10-handed. I start with $390. Other players cover.
One limper and very aggressive MP raises to $20. HJ (tight) and CO (loose) call. There is $70 in the pot when it gets to me on button. I raise to $80 with 98o. Good or bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty standard mix-up play in that game. It would be a lot better, though, if the CO weren't loose.

Edit: I'm assuming this is the Party 400.

[Heimdal]

Yes it's on party

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
400NL 10-handed. I start with $390. Other players cover.
One limper and very aggressive MP raises to $20. HJ (tight) and CO (loose) call. There is $70 in the pot when it gets to me on button. I raise to $80 with 98o. Good or bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty standard mix-up play in that game. It would be a lot better, though, if the CO weren't loose.

Edit: I'm assuming this is the Party 400.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bear, this contradicts what you said in your reply to me. CO being a loose player makes this bad for 2 reasons: 1 original raiser is likely to play, and then CO is even more likely to play.

Marlow

[Marlow]

Also, isn't the classic squeeze play when the callers are between you and the original raiser? Since the original raiser is next to act, I think that this can easily backfire.

Marlow

[Mikey]

you have to understand this.....

This is a well thought out play, but I don't recommend it for the following reasons.

1. You most likely aren't playing with these players day in and day out to have enough information on them or if the hand is shown down to have any future merit.

2. You are risking close to 25% of your stack in order to accomplish this.

[pokerjoker]

Correct me if im wrong but isint a squeeze play generally when an early/mid position LAG raises then somoene who knows they are a LAG calls then you come over the top?

[mgsimpleton]

raise more.

would you really raise this little with AA?? Make it 100 straight.

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if im wrong but isint a squeeze play generally when an early/mid position LAG raises then somoene who knows they are a LAG calls then you come over the top?

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a squeeze play (as Harrington describes it). But isnt that what I am doing?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your image?

In a vacumm, this seems bad to me. People at 2-4 hate to fold pre-flop.

Marlow

[/ QUOTE ]this is one of the most incorrect analyses in the history of the 2+2 forums.
BTW/ raise more. 120!

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
raise more.

would you really raise this little with AA?? Make it 100 straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this play - you just have to raise much more. If everyone folded to your bet, you are very lucky.

[pokerjoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if im wrong but isint a squeeze play generally when an early/mid position LAG raises then somoene who knows they are a LAG calls then you come over the top?

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a squeeze play (as Harrington describes it). But isnt that what I am doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im retarded. When im too sleepy to play poker I usually read 2+2.....bad idea maybe......

[Heimdal]

Yes I think I would make it 80 with AA.
People at this level like to reraise to 36 with AA. So if I make a huge reraise I'm afraid they will think I'm trying to buy it, which I am. (I haven't played much with these guys and none of them are top players.)
Am I outthinking myself?

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your image?

In a vacumm, this seems bad to me. People at 2-4 hate to fold pre-flop.

Marlow

[/ QUOTE ]this is one of the most incorrect analyses in the history of the 2+2 forums.
BTW/ raise more. 120!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's quite a statement. But I still stand by what I said. Especially considering the circumstances.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I outthinking myself?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. and who gives an F if you are trying to buy it, the whole point is you don't do this often and THEY DON'T HAVE HANDS TO CALL!

oh, and reraise more with AA!!!!!

[Goodie54]

I can't imagine how this could be a good play. You have a limper, a raise to 20, and two callers(one of which is tight and one of which is loose). Do you really think that they are all going to fold to your re-raise? And if they don't, then you have to hit the flop really hard to get anything out of this hand.

Fold pre-flop and move on. If it was suited I'd say to call but offsuit just isn't good enough.

Peace

Goodie

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine how this could be a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]well you better get some imagination if you ever want to learn to play NLH!

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was suited I'd say to call but offsuit just isn't good enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, oh you were confused. Hero isn't doing this because he thinks it will play well postflop.

That said, I like it better if it is 2 7 offsuit, and you guys are live playing 2 7 bounty.. who knows that game? when you win a pot with 2 7 everyone at the table gives you a set amount of money. though then everyone is on the lookout for tricks like this...

[ChewyMint]

I like the play, and I would say I use this every 100-150 hands. If you've got an image as a "tight" player, it usually works very well. Similarly, if you do get called pre-flop, nearly every flop works well, as far as taking it away goes. Against a better player who calls your raise, you have the opportunity to take it away on virtually any flop, unless the flop hits them hard. Problem is, you are going to have to spend 2/3 of your remaining stack on the flop to do this. While I do like this play, it should only be made when the stacks are relatively deep, which at 2/4 could mean anything $500-600+. Putting in 20% of your stack pre-flop, knowing you are going to have to put in much more to make the play work if you actually get a call (worst case scenario) is trouble.

ChewyMint

[TheWorstPlayer]

On the flop, let's say you get one caller, you have $200 in the pot and $300 in the stack. What's your plan? Does it depend on whom the caller is?

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, let's say you get one caller, you have $200 in the pot and $300 in the stack. What's your plan? Does it depend on whom the caller is?

[/ QUOTE ]

If loose (and bad) player calls I'm done with it. If the raiser calls it depends on the flop texture. I dont think he would get away from JJ on a T high flop. Or AQ on a Qxx flop.
I probably check most flops unless i flop two pair+ or a draw. With deeper stacks I would bet

[Goodie54]

This play does not have anything to do with imagination. Let's disect this play a little more. We have 4 players who have already voluntarily put money in this pot, three of which either made or called a pre-flop raise. They are:

A limper, now the OP didn't say anthing about him but it is possible he's limping with a big hand considering that there is a lag right behind him.

A lag, now obviously it's less likely than normal that he has a real hand, but he might and then we're in trouble. Either way, he's lag so that means he likes to play a lot of hands so he is WAY more likely to call this raise and put more money in post-flop than a normal player, which hero doesn't want.

Loose cutoff. I don't think I have to explain why it's a horrible play to try to bluff a loose player. Goes without saying.

Tight caller. This player is most likely to have a real hand but is also most likely to fold. What if he gets stubborn and decides to call with his AJ or KQ and let's just say that he plays well post flop, which is a problem.

Now, all this is enough to shoot down this play but let's go a little further. Your putting in 25% of your stack and will likely have to bluff post flop if you get called. This takes up way too much of your stack on a bluff that won't work a good percentage of the time (see above).

As a sidenote, the raise pre-flop is too small anyways because of the players your dealing with (see above).

Any Questions?

Peace

Goodie

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, let's say you get one caller, you have $200 in the pot and $300 in the stack. What's your plan? Does it depend on whom the caller is?

[/ QUOTE ]


I probably check most flops unless i flop two pair+ or a draw. With deeper stacks I would bet

[/ QUOTE ]no! part of the beauty o this play is that it will be very profitable for you to bet allin and 90% of flops.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, let's say you get one caller, you have $200 in the pot and $300 in the stack. What's your plan? Does it depend on whom the caller is?

[/ QUOTE ]


I probably check most flops unless i flop two pair+ or a draw. With deeper stacks I would bet

[/ QUOTE ]no! part of the beauty o this play is that it will be very profitable for you to bet allin and 90% of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. I agree with this and was sensing from the OP that he wouldn't play aggressively on the flop. I think you have to make a play at the pot on the flop. It will a)be +EV most likely and b)send a message that they had better be ready to play for their stack if they are going to call your re-raise.

[Goodie54]

Guess what? A really good way to show them they have to play for thier stack when you re-raise is to actually have a hand when you re-raise. Works really good.

Why would you want to play for YOUR stack with a piece of crap like 98off?

It just doesn't make sense in this spot (see above post).

Peace

Goodie

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess what? A really good way to show them they have to play for thier stack when you re-raise is to actually have a hand when you re-raise. Works really good.

Why would you want to play for YOUR stack with a piece of crap like 98off?

It just doesn't make sense in this spot (see above post).

Peace

Goodie

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure that works if you're happy just to play your hand with no regard for theirs. It'll certainly win you money. But it won't win you the most money.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess what? A really good way to show them they have to play for thier stack when you re-raise is to actually have a hand when you re-raise. Works really good.

Why would you want to play for YOUR stack with a piece of crap like 98off?

It just doesn't make sense in this spot (see above post).

Peace

Goodie

[/ QUOTE ]jesus, you are a nit.
keep on grinding those SS homie!

[Goodie54]

Please respond to the post I made above before you call me a nit. I'm assuming you have no response which is why you resort to foolish name calling and one sentence answers.

Good luck with that.

Peace

Goodie

[TheWorstPlayer]

You are right that the raise should have been a tad bigger. You are wrong that it is likely that the hands possessed by the opponents in this hand can stand a re-raise and a flop push often enough to make it a money losing play.

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guess what? A really good way to show them they have to play for thier stack when you re-raise is to actually have a hand when you re-raise. Works really good.

Why would you want to play for YOUR stack with a piece of crap like 98off?

It just doesn't make sense in this spot (see above post).

Peace

Goodie

[/ QUOTE ]jesus, you are a nit.
keep on grinding those SS homie!

[/ QUOTE ]

What gives with these flip responses?

I don't see how not reraising with 98o in the BB against 2 or 3 potential callers is being a "nit."

I don't think anyone is saying that people should never ever make this move. It just looks like this may not be the best spot.

Marlow

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
It just looks like this may not be the best spot.


[/ QUOTE ]
This spot seems almost tailor made. If any of the callers had anything they would have re-raised the LAG. And the LAG's hand range certainly can't take the heat. Look at all that beautiful dead money in the middle. How can you not want it?

[Goodie54]

Whether or not they can withstand a re-raise based on our understanding is irrelevant. As we all know, people do some crazy stuff while playing poker. My contention is that given the description of the players involved and the action to this point, this is not the best spot for a big pre-flop and post-flop bluff.

This I am fairly certain I'm right about.

Peace

Goodie

[Goodie54]

Just because the callers didn't have a hand that could re-raise the lag does not mean they will not call the re-raise by the OP. The OP didn't say we were dealing with TAG's here, he said lag and loose cutoff. This means something entirely different than what your suggesting as taylor made.

Peace

Goodie

[TheWorstPlayer]

An EP limper (probably weak), an over-aggro MP raises to isolate the weak limper, a tight player doesn't re-raise even though MP is often iso-raising here, a loose player calls in the CO after the HJ cold-call (very wide range of speculative hands here since he's in position, he's loose, and there's a big pot brewing).

THESE GUYS CANNOT TAKE HEAT.

[Goodie54]

That all makes perfect sense IF you are dealing with players that make perfect sense. We are not. Loose usually means bad, lag may also mean maniac and tight may mean passive. It could go either way, but it sure looks like to me that WAY too many things have to fall perfectly into place for the op's play to work.

I just don't see all those things falling into place enough of a percentage of the time for this to be a good play.

Peace

Goodie

[fimbulwinter]

fim

[Kirkrrr]

Against one, possibly two players re-raise I think is a good play. But now that you have a nice multi-way pot going, take the flop with the perfect hand for it.
You're losing a lot in implied odds by:
either forcing the OR to push preflop if he's got a hand and wants to take down the pot as it's gotten sufficiently big;
...or losing players that could've hit less than you and paid you off since you're basically going for the nuts with that hand.

You also said the MP is aggro, so he's probably betting any flop and trapping everyone in between the two of you.

Kirk

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Or AQ on a Qxx flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you thnk he calls with AQ.... this play sucks balls.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or AQ on a Qxx flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you thnk he calls with AQ.... this play sucks balls.

[/ QUOTE ]
2/3 of the time, AQ has ace high on the flop. Seems like a winning play to me. But this is why you really need to bet the flop. You can't give him a free shot at pairing up on the turn or let him bluff you out with the best hand.

[mgsimpleton]

i agree with most of what the other posters have said, and myself originally, heh. to recap: raise to 100 or 120 preflop (120 in this game does look like a steal, however, i like 100) and then it is criminal not to bet the flop... the only time i might check the flop and give up is if it is A high... whenever i make steals like this i tend to give up on A high flops, is that a bad move, what do the other posters think?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
2/3 of the time, AQ has ace high on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... but if AQ is SEEING the flop, this play sucks balls.

But yes, push the flop.

[Big_Jim]

With deeper stacks, a play I like on A high flops is checking the flop, and debating a fat check/raise, depending on the player. If they check behind, I like a smallish turn bet. Maybe 1/2 - 5/3 the pot.

Checking an A high flop after a big re-raise scares the begeezus out of people.

With stacks as they are... giving up is alright.... but I think your fold equity for a push is still good enough (Against 1 player). Most of his holdings are gonna be decent PPs.

[Heimdal]

I dont think he would call with AQ. I was still playing when I posted this hand. I should had posted some more information about the raiser. He was aggressive preflop but no maniac. No one had reraised him so I didnt know how he would react. He played ok postflop

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with most of what the other posters have said, and myself originally, heh. to recap: raise to 100 or 120 preflop (120 in this game does look like a steal, however, i like 100) and then it is criminal not to bet the flop... the only time i might check the flop and give up is if it is A high... whenever i make steals like this i tend to give up on A high flops, is that a bad move, what do the other posters think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I made a (bad) 3-barrel bluff against brneyedgrl1 on an acehigh flop after reraising preflop. She called down with AJ.
However players that call reraises will often have a pair (at 400NL) and if an ace flops most players will fold. But if they have the ace it's difficult to make them believe that you have AAA.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
She called down with AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ewwwwwwww.

Abuse the hell out of your new found maniac table image.

[mgsimpleton]

yah i sort of meant for fear of AK, but AJ works too, heh.

[lapoker17]

Raise more is correct - 100 or 120.

when it got to me i would add some drama...sit there pretending to think hard, and ofcourse my stack would be about $1389, so i would be rollin kids at this table, and i would raise it to 1100 and take the $70 from the pot and show these fools how to play an 89off. then i would never play another hand until i got the 89off again.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
whenever i make steals like this i tend to give up on A high flops, is that a bad move, what do the other posters think?


[/ QUOTE ]

An Ace on the flop (or turn if called) is the ultimate scarecard IMO, especially at tehe 400 level.

Tribe Called Quest Represent Represent...

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with most of what the other posters have said, and myself originally, heh. to recap: raise to 100 or 120 preflop (120 in this game does look like a steal, however, i like 100) and then it is criminal not to bet the flop... the only time i might check the flop and give up is if it is A high... whenever i make steals like this i tend to give up on A high flops, is that a bad move, what do the other posters think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im *more* inclined to bet an A-high flop after a move like this than a 6-high flop.

Its my experience that I get called by medium pairs, not Aces.

[mgsimpleton]

i guess maybe in the lower limits... when i'm playing 10/20 though and i come out and 2/3 pot an A high flop, i often get raised by someone holding like 77 or something because they KNOW i am representing KK and can't take the heat. And little do they know their bluff is generally the best hand. For this same reason i like to do this move with AKs and AQs more than others so I can check raise an A high flop because I will invariably get a bet from a worse hand.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
i guess maybe in the lower limits... when i'm playing 10/20 though and i come out and 2/3 pot an A high flop, i often get raised by someone holding like 77 or something because they KNOW i am representing KK and can't take the heat. And little do they know their bluff is generally the best hand. For this same reason i like to do this move with AKs and AQs more than others so I can check raise an A high flop because I will invariably get a bet from a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why dont you bet the A-high flop and then 3-bet when you get raised by 77 ?

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mgsimpleton]

because sometimes that 77 is a stubborn AJ-AK =)

oh and by that point with the pot what it is their fold equity is almost 0, like, 9:1 and they have to call with 77, lol

[fuzzbox]

I meant, why dont you bet the A-high flop when you have AK and 3-bet when you get raised by 77 (or stubborn AJ+), rather than checking the A-high flop when you hit, and betting it when you miss.

[mgsimpleton]

and i meant, because if you add up reraise pf + flop bet + flop raise + flop reraise and we're playing with 100 BB stacks or so, fold equity does not exist to continue the bluff.