66 standard online? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

mike l.

08-25-2005, 05:17 AM

villain is 40/17/2

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.83 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.83 BB

Mikey

08-25-2005, 05:44 AM

mike I think it would be better if you could, put your opponnent on a range of hands.

For instance all in %'s

% he has an overpair
% he has a set
% he has a flush draw
% he is an idiot
% you think he's full of crap
% you will outdraw him
% he will lay his hand down - although I don't think this is too likely in a limit hold'em game.

What you sort of kind of did in your hand is put a big percentage allocation to

Flush draw and Full of Crap and AK.

have some of those guys that are good in math help you out in this one.

mike l.

08-25-2005, 05:48 AM

30% he has an overpair (he probably wouldve capped it preflop w/ pocket pair) but he might have AQ or KQ.
3% he has a set (he'd probably slowplay it until the turn.
67% he has a flush draw
170% he is an idiot
130% you think he's full of crap

Mikey

08-25-2005, 05:51 AM

then you played it EXPERTLY!!

Josh W

08-25-2005, 06:07 AM

mike -

My gut instince was "fold preflop to an early raiser", then saw his stats and thought "well, if you can play it well post flop against a quasi-aggressive dude, go ahead and isolate".

And, honestly, I think that's the right advice. But if I just said "fold preflop", you'd likely reply with "are you insane? You are giving away too much if you fold this vs. this opponent" etc...and you'd be partially right.

I'm guessing you are posting this because you are curious about the proper way to play it, not to teach us here something.

If you don't know how to play it, then you probably can't play it well enough postflop to justify the preflop action.

Josh

BeerGolfPoker

08-25-2005, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
villain is 40/17/2

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.83 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.83 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this opponent I play it exactly the same way.

I think his most likely holding is a busted spade draw - big LAGs like to use the donk-3 bet line w/ a draw, and are much more likely to checkraise w/ a pair

So perhaps raising the turn and checking the river is another viable line, but I'd probably still play it as you did.

OrangeHeat

08-25-2005, 08:36 AM

Perfect. Once in a while I will throw in a river raise against this type of guy. I am always amazed to look back and see he called it with as little as k high.

Orange

DpR

08-25-2005, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perfect. Once in a while I will throw in a river raise against this type of guy. I am always amazed to look back and see he called it with as little as k high.

Orange

[/ QUOTE ]

Thatis getting a little silly IMO.

Paluka

08-25-2005, 11:02 AM

I think you are greatly overrating how bad a 40/17 guy is. I dislike your play on every street but the river.

Clarkmeister

08-25-2005, 11:16 AM

I was thinking fold til I saw it was 6-handed. I dislike the flop raise. Raising the turn has merit. I like getting to showdown.

Rick Nebiolo

08-25-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking fold til I saw it was 6-handed. I dislike the flop raise. Raising the turn has merit. I like getting to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't 6-handed but the villian was extremely loose-aggressive according to the stats so it probably played like a short game hand.

Don't mind mike's line but agree that flop call-turn raise has merit, thrown at least as a change-up. In my experience with this alternate line you will usually know if you are up against an overpair and slow down everything else.

~ Rick

Clarkmeister

08-25-2005, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeffage

08-25-2005, 12:24 PM

I'd much rather raise the turn than the flop in this spot. The flop raise is standard BS and will be reraised by a variety of hands. By raising the turn instead (since you're committed to showdown), you may actually blow him off a hand that could river you say J10 or AK or whatever. Or maybe even a hand you beat potentially. I think the way you play it costs you the most and doesn't protect your hand at all. I've played it this way before though so I can't knock you too hard...though I usually feel disgusted afterwards.

Folding is ok against some opponents.

Jeff

Rick Nebiolo

08-25-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Just noticed that. Note that the converter shows action for ten players, don't know if there is a flaw in header or mike typed over it. Bison-bison isn't going to work on converter anymore, nor start an August "Dear Bison" thread.

~ Rick

slavic

08-25-2005, 12:48 PM

Mike -
I play this the same on autopilot against this player. The raise the river suggestion is nuts, but clarkmeister (as per normal) does make a good suggestion on the turn raise, though this also tends to be the type of nut that will go 4 bets on the turn with "complete air".
I hate to admit I turn into a passive ***** on these hands after the turn but I do. As much as I hate this situation it is showing a prfoit in my stats.

mike l.

08-25-2005, 01:20 PM

hi

it didnt seem close to me and i felt good about the way i played it, but after the hand started to wonder what others on here would do. so this thread was more of a private poll.

mike l.

08-25-2005, 01:22 PM

"I dislike your play on every street but the river."

since i have no idea what you mean maybe you can clarify? raise? fold??

mike l.

08-25-2005, 01:28 PM

yeah i like the idea of raising the turn but i dont like the idea of getting 3 bet on the turn. im showdown bound with my hand against this guy.

Paluka

08-25-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"I dislike your play on every street but the river."

since i have no idea what you mean maybe you can clarify? raise? fold??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the preflop 3 bet with small pocket pairs is an overused play. You end up slightly ahead preflop, but if you try to play it like this postflop in the long run you lose a lot more bets when you lose than you make when you win. And sometimes he has a big hand, and you still refuse to give him credit. If I did choose to 3 bet preflop, I'd try to keep the pot small postflop because it is very difficult to ever know where I stand.
I said I liked your river play, because once you get there you obviously can't fold.

mike l.

08-25-2005, 01:34 PM

misread your first post sorry. im also not huge on 3 bet preflop w/ small pairs but what led me to go this time was i had the button, blinds were able to fold, and he is way too laggro to get me off 66 here. 33 sure, but not 66.

Paluka

08-25-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
misread your first post sorry. im also not huge on 3 bet preflop w/ small pairs but what led me to go this time was i had the button, blinds were able to fold, and he is way too laggro to get me off 66 here. 33 sure, but not 66.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think of the concept of trying to keep the pot small postflop because you never really know when you are winning?

mike l.

08-25-2005, 01:45 PM

"What do you think of the concept of trying to keep the pot small postflop because you never really know when you are winning?"

reasonable. but when he doesnt cap preflop i can put him on some sort of wide range of hands and i like 66's chances against those hands on that flop. when he 3 bets the flop i have to slow down into call down mode, but i think that flop warrants putting some action in.

DpR

08-25-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i like the idea of raising the turn but i dont like the idea of getting 3 bet on the turn. im showdown bound with my hand against this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im with you on this one, but only on a player who can't three bet a worse hand becasue I can't call a three bet and river bet here.

It feels whimpy, but IMO there is nothing wrong with 3 calls here depending on the lagginess of the opponent -I have certainly done it many times.

mike l.

08-25-2005, 08:47 PM

i took this one down. he had AsJs.