Two hands, two feet…but am I really a fish?

[ElSapo]

A few hands from this morning. Overall, I think I get what’s happening here but I want to know if my logic is right… When I hit top pair, bet and get called, and then raised on the rag-turn, I slow it down. Many times this means someone else who was trailing with top pair no-kicker just hit it.

I’m also wondering if I play flush draws too far. One hand here I call to the river (just feels weak) and after the hand I started to wonder if I was behind, anyways, to the nut-draw (mine was K-high).

Anyways, a few hands. Any comments are appreciated. I’m getting frustrated because I can’t seem to consistently beat the .5/1 at PartyPoker, and I’m not moving up in levels until I’m satisfied I can show the requisate patience and discipline. I’ve gotten out the Jones WLLH book to re-read, that’s probably a good start.

I’ve only been playing online a couple of weeks now, and overall my results are up and down. But it is frustrating.


Hand 1 – Three off the button and I call with 56s. A bad move right away? Two more callers, the blinds complete and check.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Js, Ac, 8c ]
Ok, I got none of that. Preparing to check-fold, but it goes around.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7d ]
I’ve picked up an open ended straight draw. I bet, am raised, and all fold (me included). My logic was this – someone could be sitting on a hand, and had gone for the check raise before. The straight I’d drawing to is not the nuts. The pot isn’t big enough to justify calling. Did I make one, two or three errors here? (calling pre-flop, betting out, and then folding?)

Hand 2 – In the small blind, I get AKo and raise. Three callers, including BB.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9s, Ac, 2d ] I bet out, two callers.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8s ]
I bet, am raised. A fold and I call. River is the Tc. I call it down from here and am shown 89o by guy in first position (after blinds). Does anyone re-raise here once he raises? I’ve found in this low limit game a raise means two pair in this situation, or some other hand bigger that TPTK.

Hand 3 – This one bugged me after, because once the last guy folds I realize that even if I hit the flush, I may not win. I’m in the big blind with K3d. One limper, and a raise. Small blind calls, I call, limper calls. Four to the flop.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9d, Jh, 2d ] Small blind checks, I check, bet and a raise, we all call.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7h ] Initial bettor checks, raiser bets, blinds call (mistake?).
River a blank, bet fold-fold. It occurred to me afterwards that the other blind was likely on a flush draw as well. So my king-high may not have taken it down anyways, and who knew about the initial bettor who folded on the turn.

Hand 4 – Last hand. Early position, I’m dealt QQ and raise. Six callers including the BB. Six? Wow… ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7c, 6d, 4c ]… I bet, three callers, LP raises, all call. I check-call from here out. ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4s ]… I check-call from here and eventually get shown Q4 for two pair, who called 2 bets cold from MP. The flop raiser actually had K6c for middle pair and a flush draw.

Actually, now that I look at the last hand, I think I should have bet out again on the turn. I didn’t know I was beat by Q4 at that point but I can’t give the free card to the flush draw. Moot point in the end though…

Any comments appreciated.

[Jeffro]

Hand 1. You don’t say how many callers to you; usually this is an easy muck for me pre-flop. I don’t see any value in the bet on the turn, there are 4 overcards, and a flush and higher straight draw.

Hand 2. I would play it the same way expecting to see the two pair.

Hand 3. Depending on the raiser I might muck this pre-flop. I think you have to see this to the river with the King high flush draw, don’t think you can assume the ace is out there.

Hand 4. Little lost on this hand if he has a 4 doesn’t he have trips or a boat. I probably would have re-raised the flop depending on the number of callers between us.

[Homer]

Hand 1

Did you open-limp? If so, it's not a good play. You should fold this hand. The only way I would play 65s three off the button is if three or more players limped in before me. On the turn, I would check and hope it got checked around. If someone bet, I would fold. The pot isn't big enough to be check-calling with this hand, and a bet isn't likely to get four opponents to fold. After you bet and are raised, you are getting 5.5:1 on the call. If all your outs are good your odds against improving are 4.75:1, which is enough to call. However, if the raisor has T9 you are drawing dead, if he has a T (could be raising with JT, QT, KT) you are drawing at four outs, and if he has a flush draw you are drawing at six outs. Since you barely have odds for a call with all your outs being clean, and since there is a good chance that not all your outs are clean, I think you should fold. I think you should have considered the possibility of being raised before betting the turn. If you did so and realized that you wouldn't have odds to call the raise, then you might have realized that it would be better to not bet the turn in the first place.

Hand 2

Generally speaking, your opponent will have two-pair or better when he raises the turn. You should typically call the turn raise and fold on the river unless you catch an A or K, or the board pairs. I often find myself calling hands like these down, only to be shown a better hand time and time again. I'm starting to limit myself to calling my opponent down only when the pot is large and/or there is a decent chance he is semi-bluffing (depends on the texture of the board).

Hand 3

I would fold this hand preflop. I don't think 7:1 is enough to play Kxd out of the BB. I assume you called on the turn and are questioning the call? If so, don't. "You have a call here, and it isn't close", as many people would say. You are getting something like 11:1 on a 4:1 shot. Even if Axd is out there 50% of the time (which it isn't...probably more like 1%) you should still call!

Hand 4

You shouldn't slow down so quickly with overpairs. When LP raises, you still have him beat most of the time. He could have a smaller overpair, top-pair, a straight draw, a flush draw, etc. You should have done one of the following after he raised: Re-raise hoping to clear the field and get it heads-up (or close to it), call the raise with the intention of betting the turn when a blank comes, or call the raise with the intention of checkraising the turn. Most of the time I would three-bet. I only like checkraising if I am confident that LP will bet again when checked to. I'd hate to see it get checked through, which could happen if LP was raising the flop on a draw.

-- Homer

[eMarkM]

Hand 1
If you're open limping with this hand, that's a bad move. Very fishy, no offense. Muck it. Only play hands like that after several limpers so you get odds to flop something. 6-high sucks otherwise. Once you're raised on the turn you can call and see if you're str8 comes in.

Hand 2
I would have played it the same way, though you can make the tough river fold if you don't improve. Not that I ever do. Even knowing he hit his two pair or slow played a set, I have a hard time laying down top pair HU.

Hand 3
K3s with 4 players is marginal. I likely would have folded it. A couple more players who are likely to call a LP raise and I would go ahead. When you do flop a non-nut flush draw, don't go worrying about better draws, that's monsters-under-the-bed syndrome. Worry about it when you get three bet after you've made the hand. But, the majority of the time your K-high will be good.

Hand 4
Weakly played. Reraise! Raiser could be on top pair, str8 draw, flush draw and is raising for a free card. Don't give them out.

With the hands theses others are showing, sounds like a great game. The suckouts are inevitable and frustrating, but its made up for when they pay off your made hands.

[Bubmack]

Hand 4- you are putting way too much stock in the flop raise. A flop raise usually means that player has top pair and is challenging you to ensure that you are legitimite. If he flops a strong hand, many players will wait for the turn to make their raise.

Bubs

[ElSapo]

...all were a big help. I'm hoping things go better in the next session.

[Robk]

A few comments:
1. You are probably playing too loose, if you are finding reasons to play K3s and 56s. Your postflop skills should be top notch before you start adding hands like these (if you ever do). If you don't play well after the flop these hands are losing propositions, and I don't think they are much better than break even if you do play well.

2. Patience and discipline are not what you need to move up in the poker world! (Not that they aren't important, and good to have). You should focus on learning to play well!

3. In hand 2, I would make it 3 bets on the flop just about every time. That's my style I guess.

5. In HE, you are often getting large overlays on your 8+ out draws. Consequently you shouldn't be too concerned that your draws aren't to the nuts.

4. In hand 4, why didn't you try to checkraise the flop? The pot is large and you need to try to clear players out, even at the risk of a free card. Checkraising in multiway pots is vital to beating these games, so study up and good luck!

[elysium]

hi el
read hfap