LAG hand from live tourney

[durron597]

Ok technically this hand was from an MTT but it was only 22 runners and more people know me here and I'm not getting any responses over there. So, x-post.

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So I didn't do all that well in my week in Vegas. Because of the cooler (CONSTANT second best hands, it was brutal) I was going to take last night and tonight off from poker (I'm here on business anyway so it's not like my days are a total waste). But then tonight I really feel like playing poker all of a sudden but I don't feel like going to the strip since I fly out tomorrow morning so I go down to play in a really crappily structured tournament they have at my hotel.

So, structure: $40 buyin, everyone starts with t1000, 25/50 blinds, double every 20 minutes. Today there are 20 runners (entrants) with 2 alternates, and the top 3 spots pay. I decided that the only way to play in a tournament like this is LAG and hope you hit and that people fold (and obviously pick your spots). So with that in mind:

First hand.

Hero is CO-1 with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
5 folds, Hero raises t150, 1 fold, Button calls t150, 2 folds.

<font color="red">Button is a fairly large black guy who seems very softspoken but could easily kick the crap out of me with out even trying. And I'm 6'2", 200 lbs. He has a rack of $1s in front of him, he just got up from the $4/$8 limit game that I wasn't playing in.</font>

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. (t375)
Hero bets t200, Button calls t200.

<font color="red">He seems quite calm and impassive. Hard to get anything off him really.</font>

Turn: (Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (t775)

Plan?

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I decided that the only way to play in a tournament like this is LAG and hope you hit and that people fold (and obviously pick your spots).

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What's your reasoning behind this? I would have folded this trash immediately.

[durron597]

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I decided that the only way to play in a tournament like this is LAG and hope you hit and that people fold (and obviously pick your spots).

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What's your reasoning behind this? I would have folded this trash immediately.

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I get maybe two orbits before I have 10x, and 2 more before I have 5x? Have you played live? 20 minute levels?

Plus I don't want to have a good image, because I *need* my good hands to get action.

[usmhot]

Only choice here is check-fold.
He's called a t200 bet with a K flopping, so he doesn't think you've got a K ... if he's any good he's put you on a mid to high pp, he's got you beaten and he's playing for value knowing you're throwing in the chips.
Its a very expensive way to get a table image.

[bennies]

Keep betting chipleader!

hmmmmm. The way I see it he has a pocket pair about 50% of the time, a king 35% of the time and something I can't guess for the rest. I'd say keep betting to take him off his pockets - 300-500 on the turn. If he calls this you are in too deep of course...

[bennies]

the turn Queen is great of course...

[durron597]

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Only choice here is check-fold.
He's called a t200 bet with a K flopping, so he doesn't think you've got a K ... if he's any good he's put you on a mid to high pp, he's got you beaten and he's playing for value knowing you're throwing in the chips.
Its a very expensive way to get a table image.

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That's basically what I thought at the time. I didn't decide to check-fold as much as check-reevaluate and most likely fold if he bet.

So I checked and he bet 150. Hero?

[KingDan]

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I get maybe two orbits before I have 10x, and 2 more before I have 5x? Have you played live? 20 minute levels?

Plus I don't want to have a good image, because I *need* my good hands to get action.

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I disagree... you want them to think you are [censored] rock. Tighty mctight. Then when the blinds are worth stealing you raise and they get out of your way.

If they see your 4-6, your raises will not get respect for the rest of the tournament. "Are you making another play with 4-6?"

[durron597]

I don't see how I'm going to turn 1000 chips into 22000 by stealing blinds. I'm going to have to get to showdown and I'm going to have to get action on my big hands.

Would you believe that for the entire tournament I always had at least 1 caller on every single big pair and big ace that I got?

[KingDan]

Well you are still gonna need to hit some flops.

I don't think raising 4-6 there can be optimal.

Anyway. I have a question about live play. WHen you are on the bubble, chip stacks are very important.

How often do you need to ask someone for a count, or do you just ballpark it?

[schwza]

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I don't see how I'm going to turn 1000 chips into 22000 by stealing blinds. I'm going to have to get to showdown and I'm going to have to get action on my big hands.

Would you believe that for the entire tournament I always had at least 1 caller on every single big pair and big ace that I got?

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it's a $40 live tourney. of course you did. you would've even you didn't play any hand besides those.

[durron597]

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How often do you need to ask someone for a count, or do you just ballpark it?

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Well, they didn't color up the black chips, and people weren't stacking well (I was, but whatever). So I asked for a count every time I thought it might matter, plus I had a huge stack so asking for a count was kinda intimidating /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[durron597]

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it's a $40 live tourney. of course you did. you would've even you didn't play any hand besides those.

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I dunno, I think showing down weak aces (and a weak king) a few times and raising 30% or more of the pots once the blinds went up a few times helped, these guys were pretty tight...

[usmhot]

Gotta say, I'm folding here. Really looks like he's trying to milk you.

[durron597]

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Gotta say, I'm folding here. Really looks like he's trying to milk you.

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That's what I thought too, and I didn't even have odds to draw to my 5 outer even if I wasn't already drawing dead.

So I folded.

Results part 2: Villian in this hand ended up bubbling and I ended up chopping it basically down the middle HU /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Blindcurve]

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So, structure: $40 buyin, everyone starts with t1000, 25/50 blinds, double every 20 minutes. Today there are 20 runners (entrants) with 2 alternates, and the top 3 spots pay. I decided that the only way to play in a tournament like this is LAG and hope you hit and that people fold (and obviously pick your spots).

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I disagree.

In tournaments like this, with the type of players who are willing to frequent such a miserable structure, you have to take note of who understands the Gap Concept. Essentially, you want to get in positions where you get your opponents to put a lot of money into the pot when you have them dominated or overpaired. You also want to bet them off of pots they miss, while in position. This requires a little patience and observation and it takes some cards.

Here's the thing: There's a type of player (who frequents these types of events) who doesn't mind getting his money in with the worst hand, but who hates getting outplayed. To keep you from messing with them they'll call TPWK to the river. Also, they're not folding KJo just because you popped it from MP1. Remember, they're feeling the need to get chips too. In addition, if they see you bluff once, you will get zero respect as long as you're in the same game with them. You need their respect because a little later in the tourney, you're going to be stealing with hands that are marginally better than theirs (A7 vs K9) and you really want to race on your terms, not because they think you're a congenital bluffer. You want to scoop those blinds, that they really should be defending because they only have 5.5 BB's left.

So, in a situation like yours, you're not going to get him to laydown K8s or whatever cheese he might have called you with, and you're certainly not going to get him to drop something like KQ. So I think if you're going to make any play on this pot, you're going to have to move in on the flop. Confidently, immediately. Which is insane, but what are you doing with 64s in the first place? You're going to have to play on his fear of getting knocked out on the first hand. If he has that fear. But little bets aren't going to cut it. I'm really not sure that an all-in play would work here. As you have it here, I'd check/fold this turn, and hope for a cheap river look.

IMO, this is a fold preflop. A call, if you're feeling particularly frisky. Also a call or raise, in the CO or button, where if you're checked to, you can get

To address your general approach though, I like to play tight, like another poster said, and when the blinds are a little bigger, start stealing from the players who can fold after I've shown quality hands. Against the ones who can't, you have to get them to put their money in with the worst hand, which means you have to have a hand to start with. You can use your SNG skills in the later stages to decide which short stacks you want to race against to build your stack. But you want to catch people making mistakes with marginal holdings. I don't think you can afford to leak with 64s.

PS:Was this the MGM?

FOITNOF,

-D.

[durron597]

Good post.

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Essentially, you want to get in positions where you get your opponents to put a lot of money into the pot when you have them dominated or overpaired.

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This requires cards. How do you propose I guarantee I get said cards with 20 minute levels?

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You also want to bet them off of pots they miss, while in position. This requires a little patience and observation and it takes some cards.

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I was actually hoping for the Button/CO to fold in this hand and if I got a call at all it would be from the blinds.

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Also, they're not folding KJo just because you popped it from MP1.

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You need their respect because ... You want to scoop those blinds, that they really should be defending because they only have 5.5 BB's left.

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This is contradictory. If they have true trash they're going to fold anyway whether my image is LAG or not, and if they have KJo they're going to call anyway whether my image is LAG or not, so really the only way I can accumulate chips is to get involved in lots of pots where we see a flop and get them to lay down their A high.

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So, in a situation like yours, you're not going to get him to laydown K8s or whatever cheese he might have called you with, and you're certainly not going to get him to drop something like KQ.

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Of course not. That's why I check folded the turn.

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So I think if you're going to make any play on this pot, you're going to have to move in on the flop. Confidently, immediately.

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This is only correct if I'm certain he has a king. If he has ace high, I want to protect my hand against his overcards, and if he has a mid PP he may fold it fearing the king... and it's the first hand.

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Which is insane, but what are you doing with 64s in the first place? You're going to have to play on his fear of getting knocked out on the first hand. If he has that fear. But little bets aren't going to cut it. I'm really not sure that an all-in play would work here. As you have it here, I'd check/fold this turn, and hope for a cheap river look.

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I feel like you're putting too much emphasis on planning the whole hand out in advance. I raise a hand that has a chance of hitting a big flop should I get called. Then I lead the flop (it really doesn't matter all that much that I paired). When he calls he tells me he has something. A lot of the time I will win the pot right there (in fact this is one of the very few hands where I didn't).

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IMO, this is a fold preflop.

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This certainly isn't wrong. But it might not have the highest EV.

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A call, if you're feeling particularly frisky.

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Openlimping in the hijack with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif is horrible. At least give yourself a chance to win the blinds uncontested instead of letting the BB with J4o have a chance to flop a jack.

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To address your general approach though, I like to play tight, like another poster said, and when the blinds are a little bigger, start stealing from the players who can fold after I've shown quality hands.

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The previous time I played this tournament, I saw 1 decent hand (KQo) before level 3. And then suddenly I was down to 5x (100/200, 1k starting stacks), I pushed over a limper with 99 and got in a 3 way allin against KK (the limper who had just moved to the table) and JJ. This was no more than 5 orbits, I don't remember exactly. I don't think you really understand how fast this structure is.

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Against the ones who can't, you have to get them to put their money in with the worst hand, which means you have to have a hand to start with.

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Again, I don't really have time to wait for a hand with this structure. I will BE the shortstack unless I get lucky enough to catch cards.

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You can use your SNG skills in the later stages to decide which short stacks you want to race against to build your stack. But you want to catch people making mistakes with marginal holdings. I don't think you can afford to leak with 64s.

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IMO, What I really want to do is catch people making bad folds not bad calls since the structure is so fast.

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PS:Was this the MGM?


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No, it was the Texas Station (the hotel I was staying at). The MGM's tournament buyin was too high for my taste.