Who has any experience in the bar/restaurant biz?

[STLantny]

I just took a well paying job, selling/maintaining/installing Point of Servce (POS- flat screens, touch screens, av equip, cash registers etc at restuarants/small biz etc) equipment, along with poker, and a few other business options I am working on, I should be out of the 60k debt by the time I graduate, and maybe have a few bucks saved up. I really like selling this stuff, and I dont mind installing it, Ive also networked with a TON of restaurant owners, and have decided that by the time Im 27/28, (23 now), I want to open up a little corner bar, at the same time I open up my own biz (rather than working for someone), in the POS industry. I figure that I will be able to open the bar, after I get some help w/ training from the connections I make, then hire 2-3 bartenders etc to bartend, then I can do my POS thing during the day, and do the GM stuff at the bar at night. How feasible is something like this? How tough is it (time/talent-wise) to make a bar profitable, if its a smallish neighboorhood bar, and thoughts on the rest?

[turnipmonster]

in general, owning a bar or restaraunt is a sucker's game. very few make it.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I think it's a lot more work and a ton more stress than you're thinking it is.

[STLantny]

That is what Ive been told too. But, I think that my outlook is skewed because, one: Im selling anywhere from 1k to 50k worth of equipment to succesfull entrepaneurs, and I have an uncle that owns a 30ish chain restaurant, who is richer than god. But the way I see it, is how hard is it to run a succesful, small hole in the wall bar, and turn out a profit?

[hyde]

coming from twenty years experiance.


A small hole in the wall will not generate enough income that you can afford to be an absentee owner.
You will spend way more time than you think necessary in the joint.
You will drink more than you think you will.
Your bartenders will steal you blind unless they are related to you. Then they will steal less.
Giving free drinks is stealing.
Small neighborhood joint are like Cheers without the laughs. You will end up listening to every tale of woe you can imagine. A crying man is not a pretty sight.
Have I mentioned the belligerent drunk yet?
And I only worked at fairly high end places.....

The truth is I had a lot of fun in my 20's in the bar business. Back when doing shots of tequila until sunrise was a fun time. Sunrise services we called them.
And you will get more ass than a toilet seat.
Do it, but get out before marriage.

I'm guessing your rich uncle owns franchised places. Which are very structured, and profitable, but not as entertaining. smarter probably....

[STLantny]

Ok, say I find a location, maybe big enough for a large backroom office area (to run my POS biz out of), a pool table, 15 foot bar, and 10 bar tables, and some kind of dance floor area. How much volume does a bar like that have to do to do a profit? I of course will be talking to some guys Ive connected with, but I am bored right now, and would like to get some idea.

[imported_anacardo]

My Pop started a place up a couple years back that he thought would be his gateway to retirement.

Eighteen months later, he works 80 hours a week, his marriage is ruined, he's a full-blown alcoholic and he can't make his credit card payments.

So... nah, I wouldn't recommend it.

[Tron]

Jake goes to the bar every day after work.

[STLantny]

Ive read a thread about jake and a bar, does he own one, or is that a joke etc. What does he do actually?

[STLantny]

So far, all I have heard is negatives? Why are there succesful bars than?

[arod15]

[ QUOTE ]
I just took a well paying job, selling/maintaining/installing Point of Servce (POS- flat screens, touch screens, av equip, cash registers etc at restuarants/small biz etc) equipment, along with poker, and a few other business options I am working on, I should be out of the 60k debt by the time I graduate, and maybe have a few bucks saved up. I really like selling this stuff, and I dont mind installing it, Ive also networked with a TON of restaurant owners, and have decided that by the time Im 27/28, (23 now), I want to open up a little corner bar, at the same time I open up my own biz (rather than working for someone), in the POS industry. I figure that I will be able to open the bar, after I get some help w/ training from the connections I make, then hire 2-3 bartenders etc to bartend, then I can do my POS thing during the day, and do the GM stuff at the bar at night. How feasible is something like this? How tough is it (time/talent-wise) to make a bar profitable, if its a smallish neighboorhood bar, and thoughts on the rest?

[/ QUOTE ]
It is very difficult. There is a ton of start up costs in opening a bar. First is getting the liquor license. Most towns have a limit to the number of licenses they can issue. Therefore to obtain one you need to buy it from somoeone. And people arent that willing to sell those, at least not at a reasonable price. Then you need to find great location, which equates to big money. The biggest factor in most of these pubs success or failure is location. So with high start up cost, and what appears to be a very low understanding of the framwork, i think your idea is unrealistic. If you are really interested, tend bar part time learn a bit about that aspect, you have to learn to opperate the business. Also, its good to know the bar aspect as it has a high probabiliy of shrinkage. Bartenders are all crooks i know i was one.

[STLantny]

Well, see thats the best part about my new job, I am privvy to EVERYTHING the places that I install stuff at. I have to understand their whole operation to be able to install and sell equipment, so I think over the next couple of years, my learning curve will shoot way up. thanks for the info though, keep it comin

PS. My uncles chain has bars in them, could I buy a liquor lisc off him, or do I need to actually apply for it?

[arod15]

Some sheer numbers to consider. To start a place you will definatly need at least 300K capital Not to mention the loan you will have to take out. ANy place will cost you at least 300K to buy if it has good location, also you must think of supplies needed, possible remodling, the stools bar itself and of course the liquor license. I assume 1 million will be a rough estimate of what a hole in the wall will cost. This might seem high, but keep in mind you will need some reserve as the business might not take off. Also, 70 hours a week a minimum for several years. People will rob you blind. The bartenders drink for free, the buy back rounds and steal cooks eat for free if your not watching it it will be stolen piece by piece. So if you are willing to risk 1M dollar investment, try it, its too risky for me. ALl conditions have to be right. Also, getting a line of credit will be hard as you dont have that much relative experinece, they will make you vouch personal assets which is always risky.

[arod15]

Yes you could buy it from him but that would mean he would have to close one down. Is he willing to do that? If he is than you have a great opportunity. Why not try to buy one of his 30? and keep it as your own. THe groundwork would be in place and you could give him a % of sales until you repayed him. I think that would be ideal. Also it is good you get to learn for free. Perhaps banks my extend you credit with less start up but i still doubt they would give you a loan without you pledging personal assets which is a scary thought.

[Jim Kuhn]

Hyde - are you my brother posting in secret? This sounds just like his life story!

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[coffeecrazy1]

I agree. Get with this uncle of yours, and make him your second dad. I'm in the same boat, only a few years older(25), but I've come to the conclusion that I want to be rich, and guys older than me know how to do that better than I do...so I'm going to stick with them. If your uncle is richer than God, he must know what he's doing...it didn't just happen that way. So...if you're serious about doing it, I'd say move in and say uncle.

[STLantny]

bump for jakethebake

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
So far, all I have heard is negatives? Why are there succesful bars than?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know a lot about bars except as a customer, but my neighbor ran a nice Italian restaurant. He had no life except the restaurant, and his wife was there working most of the time too. This was a nice up-scale suburban place. No drunks, no bartenders pouring free drinks for friends and big tippers, just suburban couples coming in and spending $50-60 bucks on a couple of dinners and a bottle of wine. I don't think he had much of a problem with theft, because virtually everything was credit card, unlike a local bar.

The big problem is staff. High turnover, lack of motivation, in-fighting, egos, etc., etc., etc. The "high-end" help (waiters, chefs) are putting in their time until they get the experience and the savings to move up to the next level or to start a place of their own. The basic help are just wage slaves. Both always had personal problems that involved juggling shifts, days off, etc. He hated it, and sold it after he couldn't stand it any more.

There are successful bars because the owners live there and deal with the constant problems, or they eventually find a good manager to help run the place. In that case, the owner is still putting in a lot more work than a regular job.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
in general, owning a bar or restaraunt is a sucker's game. very few make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only that, but a bar is facing tough problems with the trend of increasing penalties for DUI.

~ Rick

[Durs522]

[ QUOTE ]
coming from twenty years experiance.


A small hole in the wall will not generate enough income that you can afford to be an absentee owner.
You will spend way more time than you think necessary in the joint.
You will drink more than you think you will.
Your bartenders will steal you blind unless they are related to you. Then they will steal less.
Giving free drinks is stealing.
Small neighborhood joint are like Cheers without the laughs. You will end up listening to every tale of woe you can imagine. A crying man is not a pretty sight.
Have I mentioned the belligerent drunk yet?
And I only worked at fairly high end places.....


[/ QUOTE ]

These points are all amazingly true. I think that most of the negatives have been pointed out in this thread because obviously everyone is aware of the positives. I read a great website about opening a bar, I'll see if I can find it for you.

Durs

Edit: Starting a Bar (http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/0,4621,290299,00.html)

[gorie]

i played restaurant empire for awhile, so i'd say i'm pretty knowledgeable.

[oneeye13]

i've closed plenty

[STLantny]

Durs, thank you very much for the link.

[KyleC]

im currently in a culinary program and through stories from my teachers/chefs i've learned a rough guesstimate of failure rate of restaurants/bars is around 85 - 90% which is why you hear alot of stories of failure ..so basically you truly need to be an entreprenuer risk it all and reap the benefits or risk and fail /images/graemlins/frown.gif ..also alot to consider like keeping your books straight inventory is a huge factor etc. and generally when you do start this it will be your life literally and if all your income is put into this bar you'll have to live off the profits and at first it'll be almost nil...so theres alot to consider i apologize for grammar but im tired and [censored] /images/graemlins/frown.gif any more questions feel free to ask i've learned quite a bit about all this stuff

[KyleC]

also another fyi i believe the 1 mil quote that was mentioned is a bit high well depends which city and [censored] but you could buy a mcdonalds frachise or 2 subway frachises for that kind of money

[cbfair]

[ QUOTE ]
i've learned a rough guesstimate of failure rate of restaurants/bars is around 85 - 90% which is why you hear alot of stories of failure ..so basically you truly need to be an entreprenuer risk it all and reap the benefits or risk and fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a degree in Hotel and Restaurant Management and I knew before I left school that while it had previously been my dream, I would never, ever own a restaurant or bar. I've managed restaurants (mostly back of house) and my wife has managed bars, we've both been out of the industry for several years and have promised each other that no matter how tough it gets, we will never return to restaurant/bar management. Substance abuse and multiple divorces are the norm in the industry.

It's verifiably true that something well north of 50% of all startups fail in the first year and that the vast majority of those survivors (probably 85%-90%) are out of business inside of 5 years. No matter what your well-healed clients tell you, you will likely not see a profit for 3-5 years with a new startup so you'd better be prepared to pour money and time into the place and don't leave it for more than a few hours until you have solid management in place working under rigid guidelines. Even good, "trustworthy" managers will steal from you unless you make it very difficult to get away with or offer a significant profit sharing plan.

You've got some time between now and when you want to start so I'd recommend spending time researching the industry to learn what the true day to day experience will be. I'm not saying that the industry sucks for everyone; it's been very good to alot of people, just make sure you're one of the few who can hack it.

[James Boston]

My friends and I have had a similar idea. Hearing all these horror stories is troubling.

To clarify, are we talking about bars that serve no purpose other than food & drink, or "clubs?" We're looking at it more as an entertainment venue that serves alcohol. Are we crazy?

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
My friends and I have had a similar idea. Hearing all these horror stories is troubling.

To clarify, are we talking about bars that serve no purpose other than food & drink, or "clubs?" We're looking at it more as an entertainment venue that serves alcohol. Are we crazy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I was mullling over myself, which way to go. I think hte 1 million mark is grossly over estimated at least for St. Louis. A good location would be about 300,000 here. STL is a weird town, as a lot of smaller (non -club) bars have big dance floors after hours, when the restaurant closes, and most if not all do huge volume at least 2 nights a week. I will definetly be absorbing everythig I learn frmo servicing/installing the POS equipment, and I will be also know how to stop theft etc, when I hire a manager (who I assume will be one of my best friends). I assume that my bar wont open until 12 or 1, and wont get busy until 5, so basically, I was planning on selling/servicing the POS equipment from 8am-4 or 5pm, go into the bar, run things until things slow down etc. So I will always have income to fall back on. The other point is, my last name, EVERYONE in the restaurunt business knows it, because of my uncle is basically the top "industry" guy here in town, plus I know a ton of people just from living here, and meeting people at my various jobs, I think that should help out. Is there anything in the mean time that I should be doing, besides absorbing how places run things efficiently, and figure out how to improve on that?

[KaneKungFu123]

what are you going to college for? seems like you will use your diploma for dog paper.

[STLantny]

Uh ya, most people use their diplome for dog paper. But Im going for a degree in IT, BS-information systems security. I had a contract job, at a huge co-lo downtown, for experience, and after playing poker for a living, there is just no way I could EVER EVER work for someone in an office type enviroment, Im just way to social, and talented at selling to do that. This sales/tech position I have now is great, but Id like to keep going with this, and invest hte money I make in a bar, as t odo both.

[turnipmonster]

I am curious if you guys that want to do this have worked a significant amount of time in a bar and/or restaurant?

if I even thought I might want to one day open a bar/rest, I would immediately get a job in a bar, even if I had a day job. I worked in many restaurants as a dishwasher and then as a line cook when I was younger, and many more bars as a musician. just from that experience alone I know I never would want to do something like own a bar/rest.

my wife on the other hand has never worked in one, and peridoically says stuff like "wouldn't it be fun to open a place?". anyways, I think having experience working most different jobs in the kind of place you want to open is a prerequisite for even thinking about it. work as a barback, work as a bartender, and then make an informed decision. note that everyone in this thread that has experience working in a bar/rest wouldn't want to open one /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[STLantny]

Ive had a lot of experience, I worked as a bus boy, a door man, a bartender, and I didnt really seem to mind it, as much as other things I could have been doing.

[turnipmonster]

I enjoyed my time working in restaurants a lot, I just wouldn't want to have been in the owner's shoes.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh ya, most people use their diplome for dog paper. But Im going for a degree in IT, BS-information systems security. I had a contract job, at a huge co-lo downtown, for experience, and after playing poker for a living, there is just no way I could EVER EVER work for someone in an office type enviroment, Im just way to social, and talented at selling to do that. This sales/tech position I have now is great, but Id like to keep going with this, and invest hte money I make in a bar, as t odo both.

[/ QUOTE ]

does your uncle own a franchise? he has 30?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've learned a rough guesstimate of failure rate of restaurants/bars is around 85 - 90% which is why you hear alot of stories of failure ..so basically you truly need to be an entreprenuer risk it all and reap the benefits or risk and fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a degree in Hotel and Restaurant Management.


[/ QUOTE ]

i always thought this was a joke, and didnt actually exist.

[STLantny]

Its not really a franchise, although you can pay a million bucks just for use of the name and franchise it, although i think only 1 or 2 have. They started off with 1 or 2 restuarants in hte early 80s, and it developed into a 30+ chain of restaurants throughout the midwest.

Everyone is talking about stealing but have you ever heard of security cameras ? Geez. This is the 00's. Just get a really good security system. I think what the right idea and good vision, you could make it. Kind of like poker. 10 people will sit down at a table but they won't all be winners. If you have the drive to succeed, you can do it. Didn't Trump file bankruptcy a few times before becoming rich ?

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is talking about stealing but have you ever heard of security cameras ? Geez. This is the 00's. Just get a really good security system. I think what the right idea and good vision, you could make it. Kind of like poker. 10 people will sit down at a table but they won't all be winners. If you have the drive to succeed, you can do it. Didn't Trump file bankruptcy a few times before becoming rich ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly, I was wondering why the stealng aspect was such a big deal. My company installs security cameras, that are linked to the cash register, for this purpose. It takes a snap shot of whatever the cashier is ringing up, and time stamps it, and then all you have to do is cross-reference what was poured with the other camera etc. Software pretty much does all the work, and compares, then lets you know if something is wrong.

[RunDownHouse]

If you're going to keep inventory of every burger and every fry, you'll go nuts long before you go broke.

There's tons of things to steal besides money. And don't forget that caching the thief doesn't always mean the goods are recoverable, or worth recovering.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Didn't Trump file bankruptcy a few times before becoming rich ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Donald Trump also had a $300M head start, and the connections of Papa Trump.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
To clarify, are we talking about bars that serve no purpose other than food &amp; drink, or "clubs?" We're looking at it more as an entertainment venue that serves alcohol. Are we crazy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I was a bar manager/owner in a nightclub environment for 12 years. The old joke is true. “How do you make a bar owner into a millionaire – Have him start with 2 million.”

It’s a 20 hour a day job. If you’re looking at a night club you open at 8 or 9pm and close at 2AM clean up and closeout lasts until 3-3:30. Then someone (you!) have to be in during the day to order food and liquor, let the cleaning people in and such.

If you are really interested look around for a bar that’s in trouble and cozy up to the owner. See if you can make a deal where you lease the business and operate under their liquor license. You just pay them so much $$ per week/month.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is talking about stealing but have you ever heard of security cameras ? Geez. This is the 00's. Just get a really good security system. I think what the right idea and good vision, you could make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bartenders have more ways of stealing than you can possibly imagine. Yes even in front of cameras and with a POS system. As an example, their buddy orders a rail Gin and Tonic, they double pour it (or triple), put it in a water glass instead of a rocks glass, use a call or top shelve brand instead of rail. Their buddy gives them a big tip, they ring in a rail G&amp;T and off they go. Someone orders a drink, they pour it then go to the register and ring in a draft beer, and put the change in their tip bucket, or they just open the register drawer as a no sale and put all of it in their bucket.

Liquor theft is hard to catch unless you use a dispensing system which is slow and both customers and bartenders hate them.

[SpearsBritney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is talking about stealing but have you ever heard of security cameras ? Geez. This is the 00's. Just get a really good security system. I think what the right idea and good vision, you could make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bartenders have more ways of stealing than you can possibly imagine. Yes even in front of cameras and with a POS system. As an example, their buddy orders a rail Gin and Tonic, they double pour it (or triple), put it in a water glass instead of a rocks glass, use a call or top shelve brand instead of rail. Their buddy gives them a big tip, they ring in a rail G&amp;T and off they go. Someone orders a drink, they pour it then go to the register and ring in a draft beer, and put the change in their tip bucket, or they just open the register drawer as a no sale and put all of it in their bucket.

Liquor theft is hard to catch unless you use a dispensing system which is slow and both customers and bartenders hate them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly right. Also, quality bartenders will not stay very long with too many restrictions. You have to give them a bit of room and realize that a high-turnover, weak staff is very costly as well. Finding the right balance is key.

[hyde]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is talking about stealing but have you ever heard of security cameras ? Geez. This is the 00's. Just get a really good security system. I think what the right idea and good vision, you could make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bartenders have more ways of stealing than you can possibly imagine. Yes even in front of cameras and with a POS system]



all true.
here is how bad it can get:
Sunday's are traditionally slow, I hired a local experianced bartender. I knew he was stealing, but I made more money because he brought in a large following than I would have if I fired him......so I had to hang around all night to keep it at a minimum......as a result I am incredibly good at pinball.........and darts.

I hope you have noticed the majority of negatives.....did I mention if you have an addictive personality at all it is even worse.......I was fine, an unnamed associate burned more brain cells than he should have......at least I think I got through it fine......what was the question again?

[slamdunkpro]

The saying in the business is that one of three things will get you The Booze, The Broads, or The Drugs.