AK misses...

[blackaces13]

UTG is loose/passive.

Hero is in MP with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
PREFLOP: UTG limps, 3 folds, <font color="red"> Hero raises </font>, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

FLOP: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 sb) 3 players
SB checks, <font color="red"> UTG bets </font>, <font color="red"> Hero raises </font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

TURN: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 BB) 2 players
UTG checks, Hero checks.

RIVER: J/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 BB) 2 players
<font color="red"> UTG bets </font>, Hero folds.

Comments on all streets appreciated, most of them felt pretty bad.

[SlantNGo]

Why are you raising the flop here? A loose passive bet into you on a coordinated flop, and you have no backdoor draw. I'd just chuck my cards here, although I can see a call. But a raise here is just wasting money IMO.

[ThaHero]

You had no reason to raise this hand. Especially with so many opponents, it's likely you're beat right now.

I'm probably calling depending on what I know about my opponents. If I think everyone else is gonna fold I'd probably just fold too.

[teajay]

I like it.

I like your flop raise for a couple reasons. You say villain is loose passive, a nice combo to get to the river cheap. I think your overcards are good most of the time. You're getting 8:1 on the flop, close enough to call for your overcards, may as well raise to get this heads up.

Some may argue the board is too coordinated on the flop to do that because of straight draws, but I won't agree /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I also like the river fold. You're ahead here pretty well never.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
You had no reason to raise this hand. Especially with so many opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I had 2 opponents on the flop. That is 1 more than the absolute minimum possible opponents. Since when is 2 players "so many"?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising the flop here? A loose passive bet into you on a coordinated flop, and you have no backdoor draw. I'd just chuck my cards here, although I can see a call. But a raise here is just wasting money IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raised the flop to get a free river and to knock the other guy out. I was getting 8:1 on the call, I felt those were good enough odds to draw to my overcards and in this spot I thought a raise offered me enough of an advantage over calling to spend the extra sb and see 5 cards.

[MATT111]

You describe your opponent as loose-passive. So you are very likely behind. Even if all your outs were clean its a marginal call.
That said I think the raise is ok as it might buy you a free card against this type of oppopnent.
I think it`s Fold &gt; Raise &gt; Call

[WSOP Bound]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You had no reason to raise this hand. Especially with so many opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I had 2 opponents on the flop. That is 1 more than the absolute minimum possible opponents. Since when is 2 players "so many"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the convertor goofed up and made it look like you had more opponents on the flop than you really did:

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, UTG bets , Hero raises , BB folds, UTG calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB has been out of the hand since preflop, but apparantly decides to step in and do so again just to make it clear that his hand really sucked /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nick C]

I think just folding to the loose-passive's flop bet is, unfortunately, probably best.

[crownjules]

[ QUOTE ]

BB has been out of the hand since preflop, but apparantly decides to step in and do so again just to make it clear that his hand really sucked /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard operating procedure. "Just so you guys know, I'm folding...again." Confusion tactics.

I like the hand. The LP betting into you is great for a raise since, as someone pointed out, you are very likely to get to the river for free by doing so. I wouldn't raise against a LAG who is likely to bet out again on the turn.

[Innocentius]

I also think you should fold on the flop. Since UTG is passive, you are likely behind. You have marginal odds to draw to your overcards, but there is a possibility of losing even when you get there. In those cases you will lose big. When you get there and win, the pot will be smaller. Thus your implied odds look bleak.

That said, I also prefer raising to calling.

Also, I don't think you should feel bad about the rest of the streets. PF the raise is clearly correct. On the turn, you take the free card which was the reason for you raise on the flop. On the river, you can fold without hesitation, as the passive player bets into you for the second time in the hand.

I struggle with this type of hand too...

Check out Nate's post on the subject
Overcard challange (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2737416&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard operating procedure. "Just so you guys know, I'm folding...again." Confusion tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh. I did this by hand, since I can't get the convertor to work anymore (deleting Texas does NOTHING for me) and the BB is actually the SB on the flop.

I'm flattered that someone actually thought "the convertor" screwed up.

[bjarne]

Raising is better than calling here IMO.

Although folding is probably best here considering the pot size I find myself raising for the free card in these situations all the time.

Maybe I should start folding more in these spots.

[WSOP Bound]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Standard operating procedure. "Just so you guys know, I'm folding...again." Confusion tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh. I did this by hand, since I can't get the convertor to work anymore (deleting Texas does NOTHING for me) and the BB is actually the SB on the flop.

I'm flattered that someone actually thought "the convertor" screwed up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my statement still holds up. The convertor stilled goofed just not the convertor that I originall thought /images/graemlins/grin.gif

PF: Good

Flop: I think he got a piece of the board, and your draw is pretty thin, but probably enough to call . He's showing strength by betting into the pre-flop raiser with good straight or top pair/middle pair possibilities. And you have 6 outs to your overcards, giving you slightly less than the immediate pot odds. I guess the raise can be alright if it increases your chances by making BB fold, but I'm not sure how that affects the odds calculation (any comments appreciated). In any event, a raise also gives you the advantage of a possible free card and possible fold, so the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Turn: I like taking the free card, but you may have been able to win it there with a bet, and by taking the free card you are telling him you are on a draw, possibly causing you to lose to a bet on the river (sorry, I used hindsight).

River: I probably fold.

Sorry for the wishy-washy comments.

[DocMartin]

I usually play it the same way vs a loose passive. You know you are beat but you knock out the BB and get the free card for your overs and bdsd.

I'm sure this play can be quantified (im just not the guy to do it). If you can assume 6 outs and that BB will fold and that you will get the free card on the turn... is it correct?

[Taxmanrick]

I tend to do the same thing w/ overcards but go a little further. I probably would have bet the turn when checked to me. A lot of times I will get a fold, especially if I feel that I am perceived as "a good player" by the other players. What I mean by that is after a while at the table if I feel that my bets and raises are not getting a lot of action, I will be more inclined to bluff in this situation. And if bet into, fold on the river. Sometimes even bet again if checked on the river.

This may be a major leak in my game but hasn't affected me yet.

[deucesevenoff]

This hand is pretty similar to a fantastic discussion in this week's Small Stakes Digest ( Flop (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3142839&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1) )

This was another overcards hand where AQs was bet into on a
358 board (AQ had a backdoor flush draw). The pot was somewhat larger and the backdoor draw changed things somewhat...

That being said, I probably would have played the hand the same way you did. I like the flop raise (especially against passive opponents) since it will force gutshots to make a mistake by calling. In addition, it will increase your chances of winning should you happen to spike a pair. I think folding on this flop is incorrect given the pot size.

Turn and river cards stink for you, but we can't consider them since that would be too "results oriented."

I highly recommend everybody read the thread I sited earlier as there were lots of contributions from players more skilled than myself.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your overcards are good most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I partly suspect that what you mean is we'll win if we spike an A or K, but in case you're implying that we're ahead here I'd really like to hear your argument for this. Loose/Passives don't bet OESDs, and even if he was a thinking player he couldn't bet it for value against 3 opponents. They also don't bet into preflop raisers without a hand.

The only thing that makes sense for UTG to have right now is some sort of pair or higher, probably a pair of jacks but even if it's a pair of sixes it doesn't matter becaues we have ACE FREAKING HIGH. We're ahead here precisely as often as UTG misclicks.

That said, I like this hand and think it's a beautiful, textbook example of a free card play. Most L/Ps also wouldn't bet made straights here, as they love to slowplay. Thus we can conclude that we have a good chance of winning if we spike a pair, our raise buys us the button, cowers the villain (who now almost certainly has one pair), and take our free card. When we don't improve on the river we fold because we still have ACE FREAKING HIGH.

If the villain 3-bets us here, that shows that he's not scared of an overpair and we can likely fold the turn U/I.

The only questionable part to me is if we have odds to call here at all. We have two overcards and a two-gap BDSD, for 3.5 outs. However, we forced the villain to define his hand with our raise, and when he just calls we know our overcards are good so we actually have 6.5, easily justifying our continuation. This also seems one of those times when raising for information on top of our free card play and buying the button is a good move. As a corollary, this is also a good argument for ak13's rant about 3-betting with TPTK /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: I like taking the free card, but you may have been able to win it there with a bet, and by taking the free card you are telling him you are on a draw, possibly causing you to lose to a bet on the river (sorry, I used hindsight).

Sorry for the wishy-washy comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this line. Opponent has already indicated strength; he's a tight-passive. His flop bet is unlikely to mean a draw on his part, so he's already got one pair. That means that he's likely to call your turn bet (because he's LP and will go too far with mediocre hands).

Following up with a turn bet after a flop raise usually works when they've got nothing AND they have reason to fear you. With a T-high board, they're not going to be seeing any MUBS except for AA and KK, and LP's don't give credit for that.

On the flop, I'd put our opponent on ISD+pair or TPGK. Two pair, made straight, ISD+ace, OSD, trips, and a pure bluff are also possible but unlikely. (Given remaining action, I'd guess JT specifically.)

In summary, I think a turn bet would be a bad move.

EDIT: I'm in agreement with fold &gt; raise &gt; call for the flop.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in agreement with call &gt; raise &gt; fold for the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the majority of the replies here thus far would have it the opposite of that, fold &gt; raise &gt; call. Is that what you meant?

[aK13]

I like fold &gt; call &gt; raise.

[ArturiusX]

I hate raising on this sucky board.

I just peel one on the flop and go from there.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
I like fold &gt; call &gt; raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I raised the flop to get a free river and to knock the other guy out. I was getting 8:1 on the call, I felt those were good enough odds to draw to my overcards

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd count your overcards as three outs on this straight coordinated board. You might be up against a straight or two pair already or on the next street. I'd want about 15:1 to continue here.

[Delzek15]

I think what you did was pretty standard.You got to see the river for free and was able to fold your hand easily.