Posters and Preflop starting hand selection

[DavidC]

You're on the button with 22.

Two people post: UTG+1 and MP1.

It's folded to you.

What do you do?

---------

Here's my opinion: fold.

Reason: 22 is an implied odds hand, and the posters haven't really demonstrated any confidence in their hands.

Edit: An alternative play would be to raise and then bet the flop and turn and take a free showdown... but those are really your only two options: calling is brutal here.

[DeathDonkey]

I disagree that calling is brutal here. I would probably raise, but calling is better than folding and possibly better than raising if you know everyone will call.

-DeathDonkey

[UATrewqaz]

I fold and feel all overly smart for doing it.

[Shillx]

calling is brutal here.

Okay I'll bite, I don't get this comment at all. Care to explain?

Fwiw I would limp, but I haven't given too much thought to spots like this so I could very well be off.

Brad

Talk about hating all your options...

Two T15 limps to me and I check 96 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (T45 in the pot and we all have about T700). Flop comes A /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I bet T45. First limper folds and the 2nd one calls.

Turn is the T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I bet T100. He makes it T200 straight and I hate all of my options... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Brad

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree that calling is brutal here. I would probably raise, but calling is better than folding and possibly better than raising if you know everyone will call.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right.

If the SB is loose and shows down a lot, or cold calls the turn with marginal made hands, etc., and the BB is the same, but also passive preflop, or he's LPA, then you're good to go.

Very good point.

I'm also kinda curious here...

Weak players, who are fit-or-fold types, don't really help you here, afaik, because you need to build the pot up post-flop, since SOMEONE will hit better than you most of the time.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
calling is brutal here.

Okay I'll bite, I don't get this comment at all. Care to explain?

Fwiw I would limp, but I haven't given too much thought to spots like this so I could very well be off.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, shit man, I'm not saying calling is brutal, more like, "I think it's brutal." It's just more dramatic in its original verse. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've outlined why I think it's bad to fold: mostly that there's not going to be very much money in the pot by the river and that people have a hell of a good chance of out-flopping you.

DD mentions that loose blinds may give you a good enough reason to get involved, though, and I agree.

[DeathDonkey]

Raise all in and go back in time and check on the flop.

-DeathDonkey

[Shillx]

Raise all in

This is what I did. I feel like it is the right move though not great by any means.

check on the flop

Why? Might as well start charging an ace right now, and it would really suck to give a free card to something like 55 and see a 5 hit on 4th.

[DeathDonkey]

I play tricky and probably bad at NL. But need I remind you of my lifetime ROI in the 30+3s? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do think you get a chance to raise the flop and stick it in on the turn against an Ace by checking. Your way your stack size is sort of goofy and if you have a pot sized bet remaining for the river and it comes an ugly club or something, you are going to have a tougher decision than if you get to raise the flop and stick the rest in on the turn.

-DeathDonkey

[bottomset]

easy limp

bad players post in UTG and MP, bad players make hands like 22 good

[Wetdog]

I like the alternative play here. There's basicly four random hands forced to contribute. Of those two at most have any legitimacy, most likely just one or less. Bet/raise the flop, and turn. Of course you ARE going to flop the set aren't you?

And Brad, push all in. The min raise doesn't scare me. I'd bet my hairy nutsack on that one. But then I'm waaaaaay too agro in NL which is why I play limit.

[GrunchCan]

I try to steal the blinds with a raise. It's true that the increased pot size will encourage action from people who might fold in a smaller pot. But it's also true that with 2 posters and the 2 blinds, your rasie only has to succeed about 55% of the time to be +EV, and I think it suceeds that often. Besides, your hand isn't totally worthless, so there is equity in raising.

I rasie.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I'm usually using the alternative line here, raising, betting the flop and turn and taking a free showdown if it gets that far. People posting in UTG+1 and MP1 are generally weak players, and if they haven't raised they may not like their hands very much. Ideally this would be heads-up by the turn, or I have already won. I don't much like folding, I would at least rather limp and see a flop and the action on it.

The problem with this arises when you face a donkbet on the flop or turn (and you haven't set up.) Since your opponent just sat down, he is possibly a complete unknown. Without reads, it's not always easy to know what to do. But honestly, it seems to work often enough that I still do it.

[trainslayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to steal the blinds with a raise... your rasie only has to succeed about 55% of the time to be +EV, and I think it suceeds that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the raise but I got serious doubts about 4 people folding to it 55% of the time. Specially cause it smells like a steal. I do think the raise will get us to HU or 3 handed where I like my chances.

hoo boy, i now tuck tail, take cover, cower and wait to be blown outta the water. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Actually, I'm in total agreement with your (and Grunch's) logic here. 22 loses its power in a 5-handed pot, so a raise would thin things out and make life easier for you on the flop.

Of course, you're holding smallest pair possible, but this hand can be played aggressively with success imo.