Quiz: Do YOU have the odds? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Eeegah

08-24-2005, 06:03 PM

There's been some talk among the newer folks to the effect that they aren't particularly sure how many outs they have in a situation, and by corollary whether or not they have odds to call. Whenceforth and inasmuchwith, I've done gone and drawn up a quiz for you neophytes to practice your out counting skills on.

For each question, answer the following:
a) How many raw (ie, pre-discounted) outs do you have? List them. (Note, count overcards as still being 1.5 outs, even though that's technically discounted.)
b) How would you discount your outs?
c) Would you have odds to call if you were closing the action? Don't factor in implied odds here.
d) If you're not actually closing the action, would you call here? Go ahead and factor in implied odds here if you want, but please elucidate as frankly I'm not good at calculating this and could learn someting /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
e) Add up the ranks of the cards on the board and divide by the sum of your hole cards. Round to the nearest integer and write the results in Korean (pure Korean, not Sino).

Assume that we're behind here, and we will likely need to go to showdown: we have to improve to win this. Also assume that your opponents are for the most part solid preflop (not necessarily postflop), and will generally conform to SSHE's Tight chart. Most of these are straight out of my PT database, although a few have been altered to make it more difficult (so you may want to double-check the math on the pot sizes). And please, no criticizing the action before our decision as some of these hands are ficticious anyway.

Hand 1
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, Hero...

Hand 2
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero...

Hand 3
PokerStars 0.25/1.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, SB calls, MP2 calls, Hero...

Hand 4
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB 3-bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero...

Hand 5
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, Hero...

Hand 6
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero...

Hand 7
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero...

Hand 8
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
7 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero...

(Note: Since Hand 8 is a possible blind steal attempt, you needn't necessarily assume you're behind here)

tiltaholic

08-24-2005, 06:14 PM

Sorry. I only got this far

"for you neophytes"

mastered the game in 3 months did we?

i'll go read the post now.

Eeegah

08-24-2005, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I only got this far

"for you neophytes"

mastered the game in 3 months did we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Step 1: Be dealt 99.
Step 2: Flop quads.
Step 3: Profit.

It's not that hard.

tiltaholic

08-24-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I only got this far

"for you neophytes"

mastered the game in 3 months did we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Step 1: Be dealt 99.
Step 2: Flop quads.
Step 3: Profit.

It's not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

poker IS easy.

good situations.
i'll comment later, because i'm just gonna cut and paste from someone who is better than me anyway.

numeri

08-24-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
a) 1.5 for the K overcard, 1.5 for the BDFD, and maybe 1 for the BDSD. (Unfortunately, I'm not a whiz on the BDSD, but ours is using only one card, and not to the nuts.)
b) The overcard is already sufficiently discounted. I'm not sure we need to discount the BDFD, as we're drawing to the 2nd nuts. The BDSD is already sufficiently discounted.
c) No.
d) No, I would not call. The only outs I really like are for the FD, and I can't make up any bets until the river, and I can't be completely sure I have the best hand there. Easy fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
a) 3 outs for the OC and 1.5 for the BDFD.
b) We need to discount the OC outs even more. I might give myself two outs for those, and maybe 0.5 for my weak 1-card BDFD.
c) No.
d) No. I fold this as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3
PokerStars 0.25/1.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, SB calls, MP2 calls, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
(not sure about pre-flop, but anyway...)
a) 3 OC outs, 4 for the GSD, and 1.5 for BDFD.
b) Discount the overcards due to the PFR to maybe 2, and discount the GSD to 3 for the Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, though it does give us another draw. Also, our BDFD is again a weak 1-card draw. I'll give that 1 out.
c) Yes.
d) Yes, I would call. I might consider raising depending on CO. This is an easy call, though I'd much rather hit one of the Q's than a K or J.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB 3-bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn, this is going to take forever.
a) 3 OC outs, 1.5 for the BDFD.
b) I don't think we need to discount more than is already implied.
c) No, we do not have the odds. (17:2)
d) Yes I would, though I'm not sure if I should. Yes, I'm most certainly to gain extra bets from the flush, but I will also likely have to call at least one bet on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
(again not sure about pre-flop)
a) 1.5 for our A OC, 1.5 for the BDFD, and 4 for the GSD.
b) We should discount our A even more against a PFR, and a J/images/graemlins/spade.gif on the turn might give someone else a flush. On the other hand, it would give us a redraw, so I think it's a wash. I'd say 6.5 outs.
c) Yes. (14.5:2 ~ 7.25:1, and we need ~6:1.)
d) This is tough. We have reasonable odds now, but it could possibly be raised again. I'd be tempted to 3-bet to slow everyone else down, but that wasn't the question.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 6
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
a) 2 outs for the 2 T's, 1.5 for the BDFD, and 4 for the GSD.
b) At least we have the T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, so those outs should be good from that standpoint. On the other hand, another T on the board puts 4 to a straight, but gives us a redraw to a FH. I think we can call it a wash. I hate the BDFD with this much aggression, so I'd basically ignore it. The GSD is not to the nuts, but KT seems unlikely with two of the T's in our hand. I might discount that to 3. I say 5 outs.
c) No, we do not have the odds. (14.5:2 ~ 7.25:1, and we need 8.2:1)
d) I think I might call here again. We need to make up at least 2 SB, though our odds (14.5:2) may improve or worsen as others act behind us. I think we need to see the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 7
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously, this is taking forever.
a) 1.5 for the OC and 8 for the OESD.
b) I'd hate to hit a Q here as it puts 4 to a straight. We also have to beware any /images/graemlins/heart.gif that helps us, as it puts 3 to a flush on the board. I think we can discount the Q to 0.5 or 1 out, and the OESD to 6. That gives us 6.5-7 outs.
c) No, we do not have the odds.
d) With our position, if we hit our hand on the turn, we can 'donk-bet' and get at least 2 callers on the turn. I think we can call.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 8
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
7 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
If we are behind, we're most likely drawing dead. It could also be a top pair or 2nd pair hand with a semi-bluff. Too tough to say, because it's hard to know if we're still drawing live. This one is tough to answer a-d on.

Marquis

08-24-2005, 07:39 PM

Bet the flop in hand 7.

aces_dad

08-24-2005, 07:51 PM

You had to have 8 hands, huh? /images/graemlins/wink.gif These things take time, I'm going to do first four and see how I did.

1.
a) One over + bdflush +bdsr8, and one higher than 2 of 3 flop cards.
b) 1.75 (since our K is right suit), 1, 1, .25 -> 5
c) getting 8:1 needing 8.2:1 this is a close fold with no implied odds. I'd make a loose flop call here.
d) We're closing the action.

2.
a) 2 overs and a bdflush.
b) 3+1 -> 4
c) Getting 6:1 needing 10.5:1 this is a fold.
d) Not close enough to make up the diff needed.

3.
a) 2 overs, gutshot and bd flush
b) 3 + 3 (minus club) + 1
c) Getting 13:1 needing 5.6:1 easy call.
d) What happened to CO on the flop?

4.
a) 2 overs + bdflush
b) 3+1 but overs may not be even that clean
c) Getting 17:2 needing 10.5:1 I probably fold, as I suspect my overs aren't even worth that much.
d) I fold.

Saint_D

08-24-2005, 09:58 PM

Eegah has gone from neophyte to guru in 3 easy steps. It brings a tear to my eye. Keep flopping those quads buddy.

This took me a lot longer than I thought. I also noticed I made some mistakes. For example, I missed a strait draw the first time around on one hand. I need to practice this more. There is no way I can do it in 20 seconds at the table.

Note: I provided the pot odds with each hand. The size of the pot is critical. A PF raise can push what is normally a fold into calling.

The shift in odds from the turn to the river mean that you really need to figure on folding if the turn doesn't favor you. In other words, use the "with one to come" odds and not the two cards. I made this mistake a lot. A gutshot isn't worth peeling one card for in most normal pots. You are 10:1 to improve in one card.

Hand 1
Pot odds: 8:1
outs: Overcards 1.5 + 1 back door flush + 1 back door = 3.5
Discount: None
Odds to improve: ~12:1
Result: Easy fold

Hand 2
Pot Odds: 7:1
Outs: Overcards 3 + Back door flush 1 + back door strait 1 = 5
Discount: Strait is to the board so it's a chop at best. I discount the whole thing. = 4
Odds to improve: 10.5:1
Result: Another easy fold.

Hand 3
Pot Odds: 11:1
Outs: overcards 3 + plus strait 4 + back door flush 1 = 8
Discounts: J high flush is pretty iffy, discount at least .5 outs. Q/images/graemlins/club.gif is a dangerous card - 1 = 6.5
Odds to improve: ~6.7:1
Result: Peel one and see how it goes. You will probably have the odds to see the river.

I don't do #4.

Hand 5
Pot odds: 16:2 = 8:1
Outs: Overcards 3 + Back door flush 1 = 4
Discount: A lot of action means your overcards are probably no good. Discount 1.5 = 2.5
Odds to improve: 20:1
Result: All this action means even if we catch and A we still might lose. Fold.

Hand 6
pot odds: 14:2 = 7:1
outs: 2 tens + back door flush 1 + gutshot strait 4 = 7
Discount: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif = 6
Odds to improve: 6.7:1
Result: Pots odds say to call. Capping is probably better depending on reads.

Hand 7
Pot odds: 5:1
outs: 4 kings + 4 eights + 1.5 overcards = 9.5
discount: Queen completes straits for other people -1. K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif likewise bad. -2 = 7.5
odds to improve: ~5:1
result: Call, but it's break even. Raising might clean up gutshot overstraits.

Note: I have been betting my OESD's a lot. I won't be so eager with a 2 flush on the board from now on.

Hand 8
Pot odds:11:2 = 5.5:1
outs: 4 queens + 3 overcards = 7
discount: Overcards due to 3 flush and Q:hearts: = 3
odds to improve: 14.3:1
result: Fold on odds. Since this is a possible blind steal, call/check/call.

NateDog

08-24-2005, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3
PokerStars 0.25/1.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell stakes are these? Can I open limp 54o utg here?

grjr

08-24-2005, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3
PokerStars 0.25/1.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell stakes are these? Can I open limp 54o utg here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only CAN you but it's in the rules that you HAVE to. It's a weird game.

grjr

08-24-2005, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Note: I have been betting my OESD's a lot. I won't be so eager with a 2 flush on the board from now on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially a one card OESD like this one. I tend to check/call even my two card OESD on a two flush board now. I also am folding more gutshots (even to the nuts) on a two flush unless I'm getting really good odds and closing the action.

VoraciousReader

08-24-2005, 11:39 PM

More quizzes...wow the micro-forum has been WORK these past couple of days. And is it just me or have we had a huge slew of hand posts... Good thing I'm an enthusiast. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
(I also still post infrequently enough that each new level is fun.)

1. a)4.5 (I counted the bdsd as a full 1.5 because the 3 ranks we have are connected...we could improve in either direction.)

b)Unfortunately, if we improve up, we can run into higher straights. 10 J would make us a straight, but also makes KQ or Q8 and we lose. KQo is a reasonable holding for an opponent. Our flush is to the 2nd nut flush. I'd like it better if the 2 clubs were in our hand, not on the board. There is also a chance we hit our straight but not our flush and lose to somebody else's flush. With 4 people in the pot at least, I discount us 1 out combined for the times we make our straight and flush and lose. 3.5 outs.

c)Pot is offering 8:1, based on one card to come and no implied, I fold.

d)No.

e)"the results in Korean"

2. a)4.5
b)4.0
c)no
d)n/a
e)see 1e

3. a)~9 (counted the bdsd as .5, plus the gutshot as 4, did not count bdsf)

b)J&K both could complete straights for opponents, discounted additional .75, flush draw is lowish for a 4-flush but we're 3 handed, discounted .5, and our gutshot isn't the nut straight, discounted .25. Did not discount for Qc, due to flush and straight flush redraws. ~7.5.

c)Easy call.

d)Can't really answer this...something's wrong with the action on this one. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm sorry, 3s my limit on this. But I'm going to finish, because it is good practice. Just not tonight. I won't inflict my thought processes on the rest of you.