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eviljeff

08-24-2005, 02:15 PM

villain is 26/7.7/1.8 (so semi-loose and aggressive) and can be tricky

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
4 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, eviljeff 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP2 folds.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
eviljeff checks, MP1 bets, eviljeff calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
eviljeff checks, MP1 checks.

River: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
eviljeff bets, MP1 folds.

I suggest you try to answer the following questions before looking at other responses:

1) what is a reasonable range of hands for me after I 3bet pf?
2) what is a reasonable range of hands for villain after he caps pf?
3) what is my range of hands after I c/c the flop?
hints in white: what is it appropriate to slowplay here? am I wa/wb? what am I getting odds to chase with?
4) what is my final range of hands?
5) what is villain's final hand? (you should be able to narrow it to one, possibly two hands)

MrWookie47

08-24-2005, 02:22 PM

It's not too late to edit your post and, you know, include all the action. Also, previewing your posts is a good thing.

Henke

08-24-2005, 02:23 PM

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 02:32 PM

all better now.

note: this post has been previewed and approved by eviljeff

jrz1972

08-24-2005, 02:33 PM

1. Probably AKs, AKo, AA-TT. Maybe AQs or 99.

2. AKs, AA-JJ. Maybe AKo.

3. AQ or QQ. Maybe AK.

4. AK-AQ.

5. QQ or JJ.

numeri

08-24-2005, 02:36 PM

1) what is a reasonable range of hands for me after I 3bet pf?

AA-99, AKs/o, AQs, AJs, KQs

2) what is a reasonable range of hands for villain after he caps pf?

AA-JJ, AKs

3) what is my range of hands after I c/c the flop?

AA, KK, AK, AQ

4) what is my final range of hands?

AQ. Anything else, I think you played it poorly. (You should have bet the turn with anything stronger.

5) what is villain's final hand? (you should be able to narrow it to one, possibly two hands)

QQ or JJ

Henke

08-24-2005, 02:41 PM

Hmm, there's still something wrong with the posititions pf, but I'll give it a try... Some assumptions: MP1 is MP1, ie 4 ppl did not fold, only 3 (UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2). You are BB. This is ten-handed (only 9 ppls action showing pf). If that's true, then MP1's raise is probably not a pure steal, so he still needs some kind of hand to raise. That means your BB reraise would be for value/control, and would require at least AQ. Then I would say a reasonable capping-range for him is AK, JJ+.

When you cc the flop, I would drop the lower pairs (99-JJ), but you could probably still have QQ+ and AQ+ and do a wa/wb. Or, you could be slowplaying a monster, so I would say QQ+ AQ+.

Your final range of hands is about the same, we can probably discount QQ though, because with that hand you're not beating any hands he call with, but you might induce a bluff by c/c. That would put you on AQ+, KK+ (QQ), with AQ being most likely.

He probably has JJ, perhaps QQ..

08-24-2005, 02:52 PM

1. Villain PF: AA-JJ. Suited AK-AJ. Suited KQ-KJ.

2. Hero PF: AA-TT. Suited AK-AJ, KQ. Offsuit AK.

3. Hero Flop: AA-KK. Suited AK-AJ, KQ.

4. Hero River: Suited AQ-AJ.

5. Villain River: Suited KQ-KJ.

deception5

08-24-2005, 02:54 PM

Definitely looks like AQ vs JJ.

08-24-2005, 02:57 PM

It was a pain to count and see what position you were in. According to PF you're CO, but according to subsequent lines you're first to act. How does that work?

1.)Reads on yourself? I don't know how you play, so I'm going to keep it safe and say TT+, AT+, KJ+, QJ+, JT+.
2.)MP1's reads and PF cap say he's holding 77-AA, A8+, KT+, QT+ or JT+.
3.)You're holding middle pair or QQ. Again, narrowed down to KTd+, QQ. You're also getting implied odds for the flush, but not the ISD--QJd, QJs are also possibilities.
4.)Either QJs, QJd or KJs.
5.)Based on villain's reads, A7+. I wish I could get closer to a good guess, but I can't without cheating. I'll probably edit the right answer in anyway. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

EDIT: OK, I'm reading everyone's posts and I see why AQ is a logical hand. Wow, I was wayyy off.

EDIT 2: Upon further inspection your PF line makes no damn sense at all. Four folds to MP1? You're apparently OTB but you act first?

I know I don't know much yet about poker, but this PF line threw me WAY off. Position factors into my reads a LOT.

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 03:00 PM

I am BB

numeri

08-24-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1.)Reads on yourself? I don't know how you play, so I'm going to keep it safe and say TT+, AT+, KJ+, QJ+, JT+.
2.)MP1's reads and PF cap say he's holding 77-AA, A8+, KT+, QT+ or JT+.

[/ QUOTE ]
These are way too loose.

aces_dad

08-24-2005, 03:04 PM

Agreed, he will 3bet pf with big suited broadway not little ones and villian's pfr of 7ish does not cap with anything less than big PP's and big suited broadway.

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

4) what is my final range of hands?

AQ. Anything else, I think you played it poorly. (You should have bet the turn with anything stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about something weaker like K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif? you included this in my pf 3bet range.
also, why would I want to bet AK into any of villain's hands (AA-JJ, AK)?

Rickjohn

08-24-2005, 03:12 PM

1. AA-QQ, AKs
2.AA-99, AKs-AQs, AK-AQ
3.QQ
4.QQ
5.QQ, JJ, 99

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

2.AA-99, AKs-AQs, AK-AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

given villain's PFR% as 7.7, I think 99 (especially since he capped) is unreasonable.

08-24-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am BB

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, thanks.

Rickjohn

08-24-2005, 03:20 PM

right!

numeri

08-24-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4) what is my final range of hands?

AQ. Anything else, I think you played it poorly. (You should have bet the turn with anything stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about something weaker like K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif? you included this in my pf 3bet range.
also, why would I want to bet AK into any of villain's hands (AA-JJ, AK)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought about KQs, but not long enough! KQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif is an option as well. How many outs do you give yourself (theoretically) on the flop with KQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif?

If you have specifically AK, you are definitely either WA or WB. However, they are not equally likely. On the flop, villain could have:

AA - 1 way
KK - 3 ways
QQ - 6 ways
JJ - 6 ways
AK - 1 way

So if you have specifically AK, this is not a WA/WB line. You are way ahead of 12 hands, way behind 4, and split with one. Since you're ahead of so many hands that might call the bet, you don't want to give them the free card. Either QQ or JJ would also be tempted to call a turn bet with GSD.

MrWookie47

08-24-2005, 03:29 PM

1. TT+, AQ, AK. This guy isn't PFRing much, so I wouldn't like to be 3betting 99, KQs or AJs against him, especially after the cold caller. I hope these aren't in your range.

2. JJ+, AK. He's fairly passive. It might even be QQ+, AKs.

4. I hope you're not getting cute w/ AA, KK, or AK. I hope you'd fold TT, and you should probably toss JJ. That leaves AQ and a much less likely QQ, since you might toss that, too.

5. Almost certainly AQ.

6. Almost certainly QQ, maybe JJ.

To add: This post wasn't particularly tough, but I really like the way you did it. Having people start with a range of hands that narrows can be much more instructive than just asking people to name that hand.

08-24-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This post wasn't particularly tough

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not for you. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif I really liked this post, too, and thought it was very helpful to see how others go through the process of reading hands. I hope we'll see more of these.

DavidC

08-24-2005, 04:10 PM

Hey Jeff... if our purpose here is to read the villain, then it helps to have your cards (to eliminate some of his cards). However, I've only read the preflop section of your post, so I don't know what's going on just yet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, your converter are teh suck. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I mean, are you in the SB or what, because that really changes your range of hands... AQs probably shouldn't be three-betting from the SB, unless the guy in the BB is fairly tight and REALLY excellent post-flop?

----

1) what is a reasonable range of hands for me after I 3bet pf?

If he were UTG, then: AA-TT, AK, AQs

Since he's MP1: AA-99, AK-AQ... hmm... maybe I'm too tight in these spots.

If he's tricky, you're going to have to be a little tighter preflop than normal, and this depends heavily on the game conditions (is it tight or loose behind you?). You could open up a little bit from what I've said here, but I'm not sure how far you should go. Edit: disregard game conditions stuff because you're close to closing the action.

2) what is a reasonable range of hands for villain after he caps pf?

AA-TT, AK, AQs

3) what is my range of hands after I c/c the flop?

AA,KK,AK,AQ... you could be "getting jiggy" with JJ here, seeing if you can slow him down by representing something bigger than you have.... Particularly if you have any of the ace-big-suited spades that would be good hands here... however, by the river we know that you don't have AKs spades. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Final range appears to be the same as it was on the flop, because the board hasn't changed very much.

Villain could have had maybe AJs, but that would be weird. QQ or JJ is also possible.

Reading your hints in white for your flop range:

You're not giving up too much by slowplaying a hand HU, afaik. If you have AQ, then you are WA/WB, maybe... so this looks like a good hand for you to have on the river, but it would have to be suited, probably, so that leaves 2 AQs hands that you could have, by the river. If I were you and I had QQ, I would bet this river, expecting to get a call from JJ. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is the best I can do, I guess... I'm curious to see what others thought and what your perspective on this was...

aK13

08-24-2005, 04:13 PM

You look like AK/AQ.

He looks like QQ/JJ.

DavidC

08-24-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. TT+, AQ, AK. This guy isn't PFRing much, so I wouldn't like to be 3betting 99, KQs or AJs against him, especially after the cold caller. I hope these aren't in your range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, thanks Wookie, I forgot about the CC.

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How many outs do you give yourself (theoretically) on the flop with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

this calculation is way too difficult for me to do at game speed (mostly since his likelihood of having various hands changes drastically when I hit one of my K or Q "outs")

I think I'd auto-c/c this flop with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif because my mind is thinking (big pot + pair + bdfd).

as far as outs: 1.5 bdfd + 2Ks + 3Qs = 6.5 outs
obviously the K/Q outs need to be discounted a lot. on the fly I'd prob. estimate 4 outs.

if anyone cares to do the actual calculation I would love to see it.

DavidC

08-24-2005, 04:28 PM

How about 3.5 + 0.5% =~ 3.5 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

backdoor 90:1 straight, plus a bdf (1 out), plus dep on whether or not the guy has AK/AQ 3 outs to 2 outs. You could also be drawing dead to your flush/straight.

Not a lot... I don't know... I'd be willing to put that hand down, or start bluffing by checkraising the turn, etc. But not calling down for pot odds.

--Dave.

08-24-2005, 05:21 PM

I would like to say that I like villian's flop cap, though he needed to raise the turn.(wtf is MP2 thinking with his JQs when there is a 3-bet and cap after his cc? It makes the flop play against him very easy, or he folds (didn't expect that).

1. If he is tricky and as smart as I make him out to be, 99+ and Aks/o, I'm thinking PP.
2.99+ and AKs, AKo, AQs and if much better than me AJs

3.Perhaps AK, AA,KK (slowplayed), not really worried about any draws. But could be on a high PP TT-QQ.

4.AA,AK,KK,TT,QQ

5. 99,JJ,QQ

Hojglad

08-24-2005, 05:37 PM

Hero: QQ or JJ or (unlikely) AQ
Villain: presumably QQ or JJ, not sure how hero could know since villain folded the river.

I don't think hero has AQ here. Three betting AQ oop is something I'm usually not willing to do, but I guess that doesn't preclude hero from being able to do it since the general sentiment around here is "omg raising preflop is goot." An MP1 raise usually isn't a steal raise. I'd also eliminate AK, KK, AA for the reason that if hero had these hands, he played them wretchedly. Villain obviously doesn't have these either, as he/she folded the river. AQ or AJ is not a possibility for villain either due to his/her river action.

Arcturus

08-24-2005, 06:24 PM

I'll throw my two cents in here. Of course, my hand reading skills are still awful, so I had to use a pen and paper.

1. I put you on the preflop at A's-T's, AKs-AJs, KQs, & AKo.

2. I put villian preflop at A's-T's, AKs, AQs, AKo, & AQo.

3. I would think you would want to win this right away if you had hit a set or two pair on the flop, so I have you at QQ, JJ, TT, AQs, AJs, & KQs. That would get rid of your diamond flush possibility.

4. & 5. I had you possibly with PP's, but after figuring out the villians hands, I got rid of those. So, for you I have AQs or AJs in /images/graemlins/heart.gif or /images/graemlins/club.gif and for the villian I have QQ or JJ.

Great thread! We need more of these hand reading examples. At least I do. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero: QQ or JJ ...

I'd also eliminate AK, KK, AA for the reason that if hero had these hands, he played them wretchedly.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you think my play is bad if I have QQ/JJ?
what is/are your line(s) for AA/KK/AK and why?

eviljeff

08-24-2005, 10:54 PM

I'm posting my own answer to my questions below in white:

1) what is a reasonable range of hands for me after I 3bet pf?

 AA-99, AK, AQ, KQs (this is not my personal range, but it's what I think is reasonable)

2) what is a reasonable range of hands for villain after he caps pf?

 AA-JJ, AK, AQs (based on his pfr% I think 99, TT, AQ are unreasonable) 

3) what is my range of hands after I c/c the flop?

AK, AQ, KsQs. yup, that's it. slowplaying AA/KK is bad here since I'm likely to get a lot of action from AK/AQ. with TT-QQ I'm likely badly beaten and don't have the odds to chase. with AK or AQ this is a clear wa/wb - I don't want to bet into villain because he'll raise me if I'm beaten (probably on a later street given my "tricky" read of him) and fold if I'm not. KsQs I might not actually have odds to chase, but at game speed I'm thinking "pair + bdfd + big pot = call".

4) what is my final range of hands?

 same as in 3 

5) what is villain's final hand? (you should be able to narrow it to one, possibly two hands)

 QQ or the less-likely-to-be-capped-pf-especially-this-villain JJ

britspin

08-25-2005, 06:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
villain is 26/7.7/1.8 (so semi-loose and aggressive) and can be tricky

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
4 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, eviljeff 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP2 folds.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
eviljeff checks, MP1 bets, eviljeff calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
eviljeff checks, MP1 checks.

River: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
eviljeff bets, MP1 folds.

I suggest you try to answer the following questions before looking at other responses:

1) what is a reasonable range of hands for me after I 3bet pf?
2) what is a reasonable range of hands for villain after he caps pf?
3) what is my range of hands after I c/c the flop?
hints in white:
4) what is my final range of hands?
5) what is villain's final hand? (you should be able to narrow it to one, possibly two hands)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh good. A chance for me to make a fool of myself.

Btw - when things are in white- tou see them when you quote - even if you don't want to!

OK, After the flop 3-bet I'm putting you on range of group 1 hands, AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo, JJ, Plus TT and AQs If you think he's over aggressive. Him on about the same since you're saying he's a little LAGy

Your flop check/call says you either whiffed completely- which would mean QQ or are slowplaying AA, AK, or KK, so I reserve judgement.

His Bet is natural checked to in that situation, so I don't read more than would in PF.

On Turn His sheck is more interesting than yours. It makes me think of either a draw or a high PP.

On River your bet indicates various things, You're not too scared of the A, you're not too bothered by flush and you're taking advantage of his weakness on turn- though the fact you're doing this with a scare card out is big news.

I put you on AA, KK, or AK. I put him on QQ/JJ with QQ 70% fave.

I go now to learn my fate.

deception5

08-25-2005, 01:19 PM

My reason for saying JJ rather than QQ is because hero has a queen. Since both would be likely to play the same, JJ is twice as likely as QQ.