Action when checked to

[baronzeus]

First hand, but I think villain is LPp

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP folds.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (4.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero

[reb]

I always valuebet this, so many draws/whacked hands he could be betting with.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I always valuebet this, so many draws/whacked hands he could be betting with.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right, that's why I called down. But there isn't much value in betting against a draw? This is assuming he'll call with a pair but fold otherwise.

Just not sure what my default action against an LPP with midpair low kicker should be.

[Roy6]

I think you're only behind J9 so I'd bet.

[jgorham]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're only behind J9 so I'd bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of passive players are going to check queens in this spot, so I don't think your assumption is valid here.

I think on this hand I would raise the flop, bet the turn, and take a free showdown assuming I didn't improve along the way (and no one played back).

[DMBFan23]

the thing is a Q is more likely than most hands to bet the river, so it becomes less likely he has one when he checks (without a read of course). since you can put him on a J or a T, or possibly an Acxc combo that spiked a pair, I think you have to value bet this and he will pay off with all worse Jacks (we're only really worried about KJ), all Tens, most other pairs, and hell maybe an A high busted flush draw. also easy fold to a c/r which makes the bet easier (in my opinion.)

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
also easy fold to a c/r which makes the bet easier (in my opinion.)

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand has good showdown value. you don't want to give that up by folding if he check raises. i like checking behind here.

sometimes i'll raise the flop, bet the turn, and other times i'll play it how you did. depends how i feel and my read

[beachbum]

Is a fold on this flop too weak-tight? Because I fold here the majority of the time. Maybe that's why my flop aggro number is a bit higher than standard and my WtSD is a bit lower.

My reasons for folding the flop is:

- the pot is small
- I could already be drawing dead
- improving my hand could just improve someone else's more leaving me a better 2nd best hand

[dealer_toe]

I think folding that flop sucks big time.

There are plenty of hands villain bets that flop with, that we beat.

I'm probably betting the river because I don't like to give LPP's and Unknowns credit for making logical river folds. I think there are enough hands he's calling you with to make it valueable.

[RunDownHouse]

Folding the flop is definitely weak.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding the flop is definitely weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SGS]

I go ahead and bet. Lots of worse hands will call you.

SGS

[oreogod]

Well he's Lpp so he could be checking queens here, J w/ better kicker...busted draws, maybe even a T. Or mid pp (I discount these though).

All in all, most of the time your bet gets called its going to suck. If he has a busted draw, he's not calling...unless he calls A-high. Im to lazy to even bust some numbers...but I probably check here (even though my first instinct was to bet)., your only hope when called is he has a mid pp or T or weaker J.

I keep seeing KJo so that might be clouding my judgement.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Is a fold on this flop too weak-tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising this flop is better than folding.

Granted this is the type of flop that hits a lot of ppl, and that if u are drawing u are probably drawing to 2 outs, usually that wont be the case...if u are up against a Q (w/ no K) u are usually drawing to a decent number of outs.

In a full game I think u can make mroe of a case for folding, but 6max this is usually not the case.

If this is faullty logic, Im sure someone will correct it.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also easy fold to a c/r which makes the bet easier (in my opinion.)

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand has good showdown value. you don't want to give that up by folding if he check raises. i like checking behind here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Described villian is check raising this river exactly 0% of the time.

[baronzeus]

I bet he called he shows K4s

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet he called he shows K4s

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since he hit the 4 I guess its a good value bet then. I dont think hes calling most of the time though.

That being said, in the middle of the hand I probably bet, but if I was to think about it, I dont think there is much value in it. But if he will also call u with his drawing hands then there is.

[baronzeus]

I wasn't sure at the time. I figured, either he was betting into me with a hand like KT, or a flush draw, or a bad straight draw hand, like Kx or 9x. I figured KT would call, and 9x and Kx or flush draws would call if they hit their kicker, or possibly even unimproved if they have an ace, thinking im trying to steal.

[Kimpan]

I think I would raised the flop.. if he 3-bet, then I just peel one of and fold the turn UI.. if he calls, I take the free river and then call one bet...
how is this line?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would raised the flop.. if he 3-bet, then I just peel one of and fold the turn UI.. if he calls, I take the free river and then call one bet...
how is this line?

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you should bet the turn if you raise the flop because he may be drawing.

[Kimpan]

yeah I thought of that.. maybe better to go for the free showdown then...

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is a fold on this flop too weak-tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising this flop is better than folding.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think raising is better? Because of the small pot size the guy behind you is going to fold a lot of his overcard hands anyway. And if SB is betting a draw, we'll often get an extra BB out of him when we encourage him to bet again on the turn.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't sure at the time. I figured, either he was betting into me with a hand like KT, or a flush draw, or a bad straight draw hand, like Kx or 9x. I figured KT would call, and 9x and Kx or flush draws would call if they hit their kicker, or possibly even unimproved if they have an ace, thinking im trying to steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I thought if he actually had a hand its was either KJ or KT. While he could check a Queen its unlikely, so discount that. My thinking is, while he will call w/ KT or KJ he wont call his draw unless its A-high at best. He could have a mid pp, but Id discount that...so while u beat a decent number of hands, how many are going to call u to make a bet valubale?

I thought it was close, thats why I decided to check. He made something on the end, so your bet ended up getting value. I dunno, I havent run numbers but I think what he calls w/ and what he folds are decently close. I would guess, without thinking to hard, that there is a slight lean in favor of a bet.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is a fold on this flop too weak-tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising this flop is better than folding.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think raising is better? Because of the small pot size the guy behind you is going to fold a lot of his overcard hands anyway. And if SB is betting a draw, we'll often get an extra BB out of him when we encourage him to bet again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not really worried about the guy behind me. If he calls drawing to say a gutshot he is already making a mistake. Also if SB is drawing, most of the time he's calling a turn bet anyway and almost always checking the river. Same deal if we dont raise the flop...he's betting the turn and checking the river UI.

My comment that I think raising is far better than folding was said to illustrate a point to the poster who wanted a fold.