20/40 7CS/8 ? Expensive Third Street Call With a Live Flush

[Rick Nebiolo]

This hand comes from a live, aggressive 20/40 stud eight or better game.

An "action bet" of $20 is posted to the bring-ins' immediate right. The action bet acts as a complete bet in turn. Players in front of the action bet can only call the $5 bring-in (or fold of course). After the action bet completes to $20, the players still in can reraise or call. The action bet has right of last action (i.e., can raise) if all players just call.

Anyway, the bring-in for $5 is a 4c. Next player folds a banana. A competent aggressive player calls $5 with an Ad (her only option at this point ? once again she can raise the action bet when it comes back to her). A decent player calls $5 with the 7d.

Hero has (Jh-3h) 8h. There are no hearts out. Behind Hero is an extremely live, aggressive player with a 6c showing and another player with a banana showing. Knowing it will eventually cost at least $20, should Hero call $5 here?

Let's say Hero calls $5. The live player with the 6c calls $5. The player showing the banana folds. The action bet makes it $20 (there is no option at this point). The bring-in calls $20. Now the aggressive player with the Ad makes it $40 (to say this was foreseeable is an understatement). The decent player with the 7d calls $40.

Hero can call $35 more (note that there could be further raising) or fold. What should Hero do and is it close?

My opinion is noted below.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Note that I'm just a beginner at this game so take my advice with a grain of salt.

I think Hero barely had a call for $5 since it will so often come back at $40. But if it had just come back at $20 then Hero can call. Still, it is no better than close (as a beginner I'd fold and look for better spots). But at $40 or more Hero should fold and it isn't close.

IMO the live hearts are outweighed by the weak upcard (the 8h is fine head up, but with four lower cards in play it is almost worthless). With a weak upcard in a multi-way pot Hero's hand becomes a target. Hero has a weak backdoor low, no straight draw, no high pairs, and is essentially drawing long for half the pot. The live player (or another opponents) will often make it $60 so third-street could easily cost $80 (after the ace caps). This is a hand that screams "I need to see fourth street cheaply!" Getting trapped for $40 and maybe $80 later isn't cheap.

Am I too conservative in my approach or is Hero headed for trouble?

Regards,

Rick

[Vehn]

Given that its a guaranteed $20 at least on 3rd I would say its an easy fold. I think you have to call for $20 though when it comes back to you. By the way I would say that if hero is known at all to those players they would be able to easily read her hand.

[Andy B]

Without reading your opinion or that of the venerable vehn_, I'd say you have a fold. I think playing for one bet is fine, but two is probably -EV. I think the original limp was OK, depending on the aggressiveness of the players still in. If the player with the Ace raises on third street a lot, hero just might save the five bucks.

I love flush draws in high-only stud, but in stud/8 you're usually playing for half the pot. Your low shot in this case is pretty dubious--8-high with a bad one and as many as three low hands in. If you change the <font color="red">8</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif to the <font color="red">6</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif, it might be close. If you change the <font color="red">8</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif to the <font color="red">A</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif, you have a play. It's amazing how much Aces improve hands in this game. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

All this said, I still have trouble throwing away three-flushes. I think you're asking for trouble in this spot, though. If she had folded for the original five bucks, I don't think she would have been giving up much.

[Gitz]

/forums/images/icons/heart.gif /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Still could lose with no low. Wait for a better hand with an aggressive game like this. Save the $200+ for a better two way hand that you have both ways working. IMHO!!

[Andy B]

Rick,

Hero probably doesn't cost herself all that much with the third street call. I have the impression that she plays the later streets well, and that's not an insignificant consideration. I still agree that it's a fold.

[deadbart]

Fold, and it's not even very close. If you could limp for $5 with a chance of it not being raised at all, it would be a clear call, but once you know it's going to be "raised", and maybe reraised, fold and save your money.

[Dr Wogga]

maybe 1 or 2 hands fold, not expecting the raise. OTOH, maybe it now becomes correct for the others to call, but it might create a free card on a later street. Who knows, maybe 4th st brings the A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif then hero could be in the driver's seat. Nothing wrong with varying your play

[Andy B]

You want to three-bet and hope you catch the <font color="red">A</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif? What happens the other 97% of the time? Why the hell does she want to get it heads-up with what is quite likely a vastly superior hand? She has a hand that depends on implied odds. Every third-street raise shortens those implied odds. She'd probably also prefer multi-way action so that she can get paid off if she hits.

You are correct when you say that few would expect a good player with an 8 in the door to three-bet after an Ace raised, but I think that there would be something very, very wrong with varying your play in the way you suggest in this spot.

[Rick Nebiolo]

vehn_,

you wrote: "if hero is known at all to those players they would be able to easily read her hand. "

good point. after six months Hero is now known among a small population of 20/40 stud/8 players and that is a problem. she normally won't chase with a bad low so the call with an eight up will often be a flush or low straight. if she makes a banana flush or non straight baby flush card on fourth street she might as well turn her hand face up. this puts her opponents in the position to play well against her.

~ rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

andy,

actually i think Hero would be better off with a six of hearts up than the ace of hearts. after aggressive player reraises the action kill with an ace the six will be scarier to the ace and the rest of the field. cold calling with the ace after an ace shows strength without being able to reraise is very weak IMO.

~ rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Paul,

i agree. in this case it cost Hero $60 when she took one off after catching a banana of fourth.

do they play this game at Foxwoods/Mohegan?

regards,

rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

deadbart,

i asked Hero what where the chances that the ace wouldn't reraise to $40 and she said less than 20%. she should have saved the $5 for a fruit plate.

~ rick

[jesseka]

<font color="red"> </font color>

[Rick Nebiolo]

jesseka,

Hero is my one and only poker student and the most special person in my life WILSFM /forums/images/icons/smile.gif .

I used to post illustrative holdem hands she played as "Student" on the mid limit forum but over time her play shined brighter then mine so "Hero" seemed more appropriate. In any event, "Hero" is sort of a generic player in threads from many 2+2 posters and it just sounded better than "Student" so I started using it.

These days she mostly plays 20/40 stud/8 at the Bicycle Club and may be one of the most personable and well liked mid limit players around town. I'm not sure if any of the posters on the stud forum have played her though (if they do they keep their identity a secret).

Regards,

Rick

[J_V]

I don't know what the other posters are thinking here, but this is stud 8 and a VERY easy fold. The other factors make it so obvious that it is a fold, I can only assume people assumed it was stud high. Maybe Zee will chime in and prove me right.

[Rick Nebiolo]

J_V,

I thought it was an easy fold too.

In the lead post I mention "eight or better", "action bet" and "banana" and other H/L split terms so I don't think anyone would think this hand is from high stud. Besides, my dozen or so posts on this forum are all about stud eight or better and several of the respondents have answered before.

In my initial response I hated the call for two bets but thought calling for one bet (had it been an avialable option) was at worse close. Maybe even I'm too loose /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

~ Rick

[J_V]

One reason it's an easy fold is because the later streets are not going to be soft. Leads will be changing left and right and the players in the lead for the low will be jamming the pot attempting to drive players out. Even if you catch on fourth, you are in a real predicament. The only way you'll get to see if your low gets there is if you catch a four flush on fourth. Very unlikely you can see fifth otherwise. IMO, its way far from close.

[Rick Nebiolo]

J_V,

I assume you meant that it wasn't even close for one complete bet.

~ Rick

[Ray Zee]

hero should have chucked the hand and saved the 5 bucks and given it to me for signing her book.
three flush is only playable in the good spots. it is easy to see this is a bad spot. she is facing certain raises and playing against small cards and an ace. all bad spots to be in.
if she does limp she needs to fold for the reraise to 40 as that means she is certainly against good hands, that will weaken her chances further.

even is seven stud high this hand doesnt hold alot of water if its reraised to you.

[Rick Nebiolo]

ray,

thanks for responding. you wrote: "hero should have chucked the hand and saved the 5 bucks and given it to me for signing her book.

she should have chucked the hand and given me the $5. between us we have three copies of your book now. that should make for more than $5 in royalties unless Mason is holding back.

"three flush is only playable in the good spots. it is easy to see this is a bad spot. she is facing certain raises and playing against small cards and an ace. all bad spots to be in."

she needs to read your book more carefully rather than covet the autograph. you make it clear on page 21 that this hand needs to see fourth street cheaply and is weakened when others have strong boards. not having a strong low card up also hurts her.

"if she does limp she needs to fold for the reraise to 40 as that means she is certainly against good hands, that will weaken her chances further.
even is seven stud high this hand doesnt hold alot of water if its reraised to you."

it was inevitable that this hand would cost $40 to take off another card.

she plays a lot better when she keeps your book handy in the bathroom for reading.

btw, i liked "The Pianist" but still think you would like "Das Boot" on your new home audio/video/dvd system.

regards,

rick

[Wombat6]

I wouldnt call for a bunch of bananas much less two. Bananas are for primates.

I would much rather play for some juicy tubers /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif , yams /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif or the like. If of course you were to post a grub or two and a pile of honey ants I would no doubt be in till the end. But for a couple of bananas ?? What kind of baboon assed gorrilla math you using? you must be out of your tree, monkey. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Wombat6

[J_V]

and ray saves the day....