AQo in EP

[coinflip]

2nd hand at table, no reads. Should I have check-raised this flop instead? Do I 3-bet it here against a random player?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero ...

[imported_The Vibesman]

I'm generally 3betting preflop (not sure if that's right but that's how I roll), and on the flop as well.

Reraise. You're not going to give credit for AK or AA just yet, compared to ATs+ and AJo+.

[davelin]

Next time I'd check/raise the flop.

[TheIrishThug]

the reason u r suggesting the check-raise here is cause utg will most likely check to the raiser, then u make the utg call 2 bets, which destroys his odd?

Reraising the flop with CO sticking around and probably UTG sticking around seems like unnecessarily bloating the pot.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason u r suggesting the check-raise here is cause utg will most likely check to the raiser, then u make the utg call 2 bets, which destroys his odd?

[/ QUOTE ]

And BB too...yes.

[Sykes]

If we 3-bet and he caps, I really think this should be a fold. The board is pretty drawless (89s only real draw), and a cap usually means 2pair/AK/set.

So, the only reason to 3 bet this flop is for information (and yes, I realize, this is a horrible tactic).

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
Reraising the flop with CO sticking around and probably UTG sticking around seems like unnecessarily bloating the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO folded, UTG has only called one flop bet. The reraise will charge him to draw or get him to fold and leave us heads-up. I agree with the other poster, if we get capped we probably have problems.

[bozlax]

This is _classic_ WA/WB, if you can get it HU. So, go for the c/r to get BB and UTG out, and if MP1 3-bets hope that CO folds, then call thru the river.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
This is _classic_ WA/WB

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think so, we're ahead of many more hands than we are behind.

[GrunchCan]

I'd think about trying to CR the turn, but given the fact that there is a draw on board that connects with the kinds of hands lots of players like to play (98, T9), I CR the flop.

I definitely do not 3-bet PF. Not when I'm in the SB. Calling here is OK IMO.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is _classic_ WA/WB

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think so, we're ahead of many more hands than we are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands we're ahead of: 99/TT/JJ/QQ/KK/ATs/AJo/AJs
Hands we're behind: AA/AK

So how isn't this a WA/WB hand? Because we're not HU? I think CR will make that so, but what if he 3 bets? Also, if we CR, all the hands we're beating will fold. The donk bet on the flop is fine and we should call down (after MP1 raises) since AT/AJ/KK/QQ/JJ/TT will also raise this flop.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
This is _classic_ WA/WB, if you can get it HU. So, go for the c/r to get BB and UTG out, and if MP1 3-bets hope that CO folds, then call thru the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is if he 3-bets us on the flop, how often can we count ourselves as WA here. If we check/raise the flop, get it HU and are 3-betted, I'm probably just check/calling both the turn and river.

[GrunchCan]

It's true that we are probably either way ahead of 99/TT/JJ/QQ/KK/ATs/AJo/AJs, or way behind AA/AK.

But the WA/WB lines that people talk about (cc/cc/b is popular OOP) are employed when the chance that you are WA is about 50% and the chance that you are WB is about 50%.

In this particular hand, the chance that we are WA is greater than 50%. In fact, it's probably much greater. So this isn't a spot to use a WA/WB line. Instead, we should be using a WA line; eg, we should be making value moves rather than loss-gain-minimizing moves.

Make sense?

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is _classic_ WA/WB

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think so, we're ahead of many more hands than we are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands we're ahead of: 99/TT/JJ/QQ/KK/ATs/AJo/AJs
Hands we're behind: AA/AK

So how isn't this a WA/WB hand? Because we're not HU? I think CR will make that so, but what if he 3 bets? Also, if we CR, all the hands we're beating will fold. The donk bet on the flop is fine and we should call down (after MP1 raises) since AT/AJ/KK/QQ/JJ/TT will also raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. here's my take on the WA/WB aspect. this overused line (check/call, check/call, bet)applies when we are faced with a situation where

first, we are heads up AND out of position

AND

second, we are either way ahead or way behind, but only when the chance of either is about the same (ie, 50/50).

in this case, if I use only pocket pairs TT+ and AK for villian, we are ahead of 21 hands and behind 9. if I use your range and included ATs, AJ, and 99, the disparity grows even greater. so, it's not a WA/WB situation. we are ahead so many more times than we are behind that we are thinking, "more value" (since we are likely best), and not "conserve bets, get to showdown" (like a WA/WB situation).

the question then becomes, which is better, leading the flop or trying to checkraise. i prefer check raising, because of our great realitve postion and what grunchcan said. and, if our check raise gets 3-bet, we have additional info. (i'd say 3-betting a checkraise conveys more info than the pf raiser raising our flop lead)

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Next time I'd check/raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? What are we trying to protect our hand from? (I'm assuming - maybe incorrectly - that you want to C/R the PFR here to protect.)

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next time I'd check/raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? What are we trying to protect our hand from? (I'm assuming - maybe incorrectly - that you want to C/R the PFR here to protect.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshots, 5-outers. It also gives me a better idea of where I stand on the flop.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next time I'd check/raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? What are we trying to protect our hand from? (I'm assuming - maybe incorrectly - that you want to C/R the PFR here to protect.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshots, 5-outers. It also gives me a better idea of where I stand on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose we should consider T9 and something like K7. (I neglected to check the pot size, thinking those hands would already be getting poor odds. My bad...)

I also didn't consider the information it gives. I find myself leading a flop like this, only to get raised (as expected) and still not have any idea whether I have the best hand. We can 3-bet and get a better idea, but we can also get the same effect from a C/R.

[krimson]

Definitely re-raise. MP1 is going to be raising a lot of hands we beat here. He pretty much has to raise AT, AJ, and it's not out of the question for him to be raising KK or QQ for one last stab at the pot. Re-raise to hopefully get UTG out of the hand and then take it from there.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
If we 3-bet and he caps, I really think this should be a fold. The board is pretty drawless (89s only real draw), and a cap usually means 2pair/AK/set.

So, the only reason to 3 bet this flop is for information (and yes, I realize, this is a horrible tactic).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this at all.

I like davelin's c/r line, but don't know if I would have used it (because I'm not good at c/r's basically).

If we had a read on MP1 that said he was a rock, or a super-passive, then yeah it might mean that.

If it is capped I'd call down. I'm not folding TP on this board just because I got a little playback.

KO

I wouldnt check raise, to many people seeing the flop. Knock them out now. Dont pussy foot it.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt check raise, to many people seeing the flop. Knock them out now. Dont pussy foot it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is giving 1:10 going to knock them out while 2:11 doesn't?

[Fryguy]

::fishmode::

I've seen wa/wb mentioned a couple of times before, yet I have been unable to find a definition for it. Can someone link me to some information about wa/wb?

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
::fishmode::

I've seen wa/wb mentioned a couple of times before, yet I have been unable to find a definition for it. Can someone link me to some information about wa/wb?

[/ QUOTE ]
way ahead/way behind. It's just what it sounds like, you think either you or your opponent is drawing incredibly thin and there is an equal likelihood of each. Do a search on it, you'll find a ton of examples.

[ QUOTE ]
If we 3-bet and he caps, I really think this should be a fold. The board is pretty drawless (89s only real draw), and a cap usually means 2pair/AK/set.

So, the only reason to 3 bet this flop is for information (and yes, I realize, this is a horrible tactic).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not call and bet the turn, then? That would accomplish the same thing while giving you more info, right?

[ QUOTE ]
::fishmode::

I've seen wa/wb mentioned a couple of times before, yet I have been unable to find a definition for it. Can someone link me to some information about wa/wb?

[/ QUOTE ]

Best link I (through SippinSoma) could find:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=2206499&amp;f part=1&amp;PHPSESSID=

This is one of the next topics I will be studying.

[nomadtla]

wa/wb = way ahead or way behind

As I understand it from the context i've seen it mentioned in(please correct if I am wrong)
most offten aplicable in heads up situations when the bettor has position on you.
You have a hand that if it's the best it is solidly so and giving "cheap" cards does not hurt you. But your hand could also be second best so you don't want to lose any more then you have to.
The WA/WB line itself goes
Flop check/call
Turn check/call
River bet/fold (only bet if you can find a fold if they raise, if they are tricksy, overly agro, or you're not sure what the raise would mean in general a check/call is OK)

a raise on the river tells you you are indeed beat so you fold, thereby you still only lose one BB on the river which you would have done had you check/called but you make that one bet extra when they call you with a second best hand that they would have checked after you if you had just checked the river.

Ya know what I sat here for a while thinking it through so I could explain it and now I finally understand why this is the right line. I never understood why bet/fold was the right action on the river in this line but after thinking through the options so I could explain it here I think I got it. Do I? /images/graemlins/smile.gif