I HATE making this laydown

[ggbman]

UTG is quite bad, he is the donator in the game. The SB was been very solid thusfar, i feel his calling range is fairly wide against UTG.



Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: (14 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[ArturiusX]

I would too.

[Jinx]

why would you call the turn and fold the river?

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you call the turn and fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has a draw to the nut flush.

[krishanleong]

There aren't a whole lot of reasonable hands that beat you in this spot. Give the unreasonableness, I think you should call.

Krishan

Except flushes which I missed the first time. I'm not sure.

[zimmer879]

I think this is a good fold. Solid SB waking up on the turn in a protected pot after coldcalling that flop means you're beat. There really aren't any goofy semibluffs that he might have here to justify calling the river imo, especially since you're holding the Kd.

[mikeyKay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you call the turn and fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has a draw to the nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

and a few outs to fill up

-mike

[Noodles]

15 BB in the pot? no way am i folding this ever,
folding when you are right saves you one measly bet,folding when you are wrong is a disaster,

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't a whole lot of reasonable hands that beat you in this spot. Give the unreasonableness, I think you should call.

Krishan

Except flushes which I missed the first time. I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he has a flush it's a jack high flush, that seems pretty loose to call an UTG raise even from a donator.

we pretty much have to put villain on J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif / J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or AQ to think we're behind here. I can't think of much else he would have but for someone with a wide hand range I think I'd have to call that river.

[ISF]

Getting 15-1 i think I would just call. He cant have J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT or AJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif one in 15 times? or some Qj /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[mscags]

I think I would call this down. I think he could be making a play with a worse Ace here. That might be a big leak of mine though.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting 15-1 i think I would just call. He cant have J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT or AJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif one in 15 times? or some Qj /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading the hand is tech. I suggest you do it.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting 15-1 i think I would just call. He cant have J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT or AJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif one in 15 times? or some Qj /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading the hand is tech. I suggest you do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he means those hands have 1 diamond in them, not two as I think you are implying (and a bit snotilly I might add)

Anyway, to the OP, I hate making this laydown as well, but I really cant see you being good here, not even with the odds you are getting from the pot, so I think its a good fold.

[Womble]

Wow, you guys have some control. I dont think I could do this but I sure would love to /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Curiousity sometimes gets the better of me.

I do think it is a good fold though

[krishanleong]

I want to reiterate that I don't think this is a good fold. Villian could have J9s,T9s,JTs. That's it. AQ is a 3-bet. Everything else we beat or tie. You really have to include the donk-factor into these hands. If we include even 1 donk hand I think this turns to a call. There is always at least one donk hand.

Krishan

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to reiterate that I don't think this is a good fold. Villian could have J9s,T9s,JTs. That's it. AQ is a 3-bet. Everything else we beat or tie. You really have to include the donk-factor into these hands. If we include even 1 donk hand I think this turns to a call. There is always at least one donk hand.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, the pot is just too big.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to reiterate that I don't think this is a good fold. Villian could have J9s,T9s,JTs. That's it. AQ is a 3-bet. Everything else we beat or tie. You really have to include the donk-factor into these hands. If we include even 1 donk hand I think this turns to a call. There is always at least one donk hand.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If the read wasnt that the guy is "very solid" then I would agree with you that a call is in order. But what do you think he puts you on? Its obviously at the least a big ace , and unless he has a really really good read on you that you are capable of laying down a big A, then I dont think any solid intelligent player is trying to bluff you (And some moron) off this hand with an A whos kicker doesnt play, or some single diamond.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to reiterate that I don't think this is a good fold. Villian could have J9s,T9s,JTs. That's it. AQ is a 3-bet. Everything else we beat or tie. You really have to include the donk-factor into these hands. If we include even 1 donk hand I think this turns to a call. There is always at least one donk hand.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If the read wasnt that the guy is "very solid" then I would agree with you that a call is in order. But what do you think he puts you on? Its obviously at the least a big ace , and unless he has a really really good read on you that you are capable of laying down a big A, then I dont think any solid intelligent player is trying to bluff you of this hand with an A whos kicker doesnt play, or some single diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could be a protected pot bluff with a weaker ace thinking his kicker got counterfeit and you might be willing to fold your ace. (Really damn rare play I know) Not many kickers play on this board so maybe he thinks the two of you are just fleecing the third player. And finally, the OP said thus far implying in my mind there is some doubt to the read, AKA under 100 hands.

Krishan

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
15 BB in the pot? no way am i folding this ever,
folding when you are right saves you one measly bet,folding when you are wrong is a disaster,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so untrue

[arkady]

I know you hate it, but some things in poker must be done. This being one of them.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to reiterate that I don't think this is a good fold. Villian could have J9s,T9s,JTs. That's it. AQ is a 3-bet. Everything else we beat or tie. You really have to include the donk-factor into these hands. If we include even 1 donk hand I think this turns to a call. There is always at least one donk hand.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If the read wasnt that the guy is "very solid" then I would agree with you that a call is in order. But what do you think he puts you on? Its obviously at the least a big ace , and unless he has a really really good read on you that you are capable of laying down a big A, then I dont think any solid intelligent player is trying to bluff you of this hand with an A whos kicker doesnt play, or some single diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could be a protected pot bluff with a weaker ace thinking his kicker got counterfeit and you might be willing to fold your ace. (Really damn rare play I know) Not many kickers play on this board so maybe he thinks the two of you are just fleecing the third player. And finally, the OP said thus far implying in my mind there is some doubt to the read, AKA under 100 hands.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I can maybe see a case for a hand like Axd doing this, hoping all the kickers are counterfieted and that he is freerolling with a diamond, or that you 2 are juicing the other guy. But I think any daimond kicker big enough that he would be confident in its ability to drag the pot vs 2 players, would have raised PF. Also I dont think he can really be all that confident that your kicker doesnt play given the situation. But once the moron folds, I would figure him to take the free showdown in those scenarios.

Maybe I'm getting too hung up on the "very solid" read.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
But once the moron folds, I would figure him to take the free showdown in those scenarios.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is in position, but I know what you mean. If he had a weak ace or pair+draw you might expect a check.

Krishan

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

He is in position, but I know what you mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops. I guess reading the hand is tech. I should try that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ggbman]

Alobar already touched on this, but i just wanted to point out again that any Ax where the x is a diamond big enough to raise this turn is insta-3 betting this guy preflop. I can't inagine A-9 not three betting preflop, but even if we're being generous here and saying that he calls with that, he's not raising the turn when he picks up a diamond draw if he is this passive.

If you look at how i played the hand, i have pretty clearly played it like a big ace. This makes is much less likely that he will think my kicker is counterfeit, which is the other argument i saw. I think the donk factor allows for calls to made in a lor of situations, but i still haven't ben convinced that this is one of them.

[sammy_g]

This is the kind of laydown I can't make that is probably correct.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is quite bad, he is the donator in the game. The SB was been very solid thusfar, i feel his calling range is fairly wide against UTG.



Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: (14 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are my assumptions. He can't have a 3 (unless 33). He can't have AQ, would have 3-bet preflop. He can't have QQ or AA (3-bet preflop). He could have 3 suited connecters that made a flush. He could be a fool. If he has a legit hands 12 times and is a fool once, it's a call. Because there are so few legit hands here, I think I call.

FWIW I almost never call after a protected pot turn CR but the play here isn't all that consistent with good tag play. That makes me want to call.

Krishan

[ggbman]

I understand your point here Krishan, but since UTG was something like 60/30 and horrible postflop, i cold calling the the small blind with hands like J-7 to J-10 of diamonds, 10-8 of diamonds, etc... If my read is wrong, we still can't forget the chance he has A3, or some suited 3. I think my read made this a little more definitive, since i just had one of those feelings when he raised the turn.

It's not that i don't understand what you're saying though.


Gabe

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my assumptions. He can't have a 3 (unless 33). He can't have AQ, would have 3-bet preflop. He can't have QQ or AA (3-bet preflop).

[/ QUOTE ]
Hard to put solid SB on a hand since most good players 3 bet or fold here, particularly when they have a chance to isolate a maniac and BB is tight and good.

Most likely holding in my opinion is a hand like J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Also a slowplayed AA is a possibility, as well as AQ.

SB called two cold on the flop, then checkraised both players on the turn. He either made a flush or slowplayed a monster on the flop.

This is a bluff like never. BB has shown nothing but strength, and UTG is loose and bad. Who bluffs in this spot?

I realize these holdings are unlikely, but what hands that we beat that SB might play this way?

[Poldi]

I´d fold it too.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
15 BB in the pot? no way am i folding this ever,
folding when you are right saves you one measly bet,folding when you are wrong is a disaster,

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad advice like this is why 2+2 sucks these days.

[Victor]

i wouldnt fold here and its likely why my winrate sux.