AJ hand - how not to go broke with TPTK [Archive]

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tigerite

08-24-2005, 06:47 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1100)
Hero (t990)
SB (t1255)
BB (t635)
UTG (t620)
UTG+1 (t685)
UTG+2 (t755)
MP1 (t700)
MP2 (t690)
MP3 (t570)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 2 folds, MP2 calls t15, MP3 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets t50, MP3 calls t50, Hero raises to t170, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t170, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t530) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t530) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t70, Hero calls t70.

Final Pot: t670

08-24-2005, 06:51 AM

Could you explain turn?

tigerite

08-24-2005, 06:53 AM

He checked the flop OOP, then called my re-raise to two betters in late position, without re-raising himself (i.e. he didn't care if they called). There's no real draws on the board barring some weird straight draw, which is unlikely. What do I beat at this point, that isn't drawing to 2 or 3 outs on the river?

08-24-2005, 07:08 AM

This must not be 10+1 /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

tigerite

08-24-2005, 07:12 AM

It's a 30+3

But still the same applies, even if he had the straight draw it's now hit. If he hits his 2 or 3 outer on the river so be it, most times he won't. If I bet now and get raised I could be bluffed off the hand or fold to KJ etc which would be disastrous. I am positive my line is the best as this is a WA/WB situation

bennies

08-24-2005, 07:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1100)
Hero (t990)
SB (t1255)
BB (t635)
UTG (t620)
UTG+1 (t685)
UTG+2 (t755)
MP1 (t700)
MP2 (t690)
MP3 (t570)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 2 folds, MP2 calls t15, MP3 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets t50, MP3 calls t50, Hero raises to t170, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t170, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t530) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t530) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t70, Hero calls t70.

Final Pot: t670

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. I put him on JT or QJ most of the time (if this is a 22/33 - at lower buyins I don't know). You give him a few outs by checking the turn, but this compensates for the times where the 7 made his straight.

I would raise the river if a blank had fallen, but the only cards I'm sure are blanks are deuces and threes...

tigerite

08-24-2005, 07:39 AM

I'd never raise the river because you are only (usually) called by a hand that beats you - and it usually re-raises, too. You may lose a few chips the odd time he has Jx but it is compensated for the times you save chips when he has you smashed.

Also, I don't think he is on the straight draw on the flop - I put it at less than 10% chance. This was my thought process at the time anyway.

08-24-2005, 07:39 AM

I guess you're right. I guess the scariest hand you have beat is JT, and that's not that likely and not that scary.

bennies

08-24-2005, 07:44 AM

I take it you put him on 88 and 66 more often than Jx. That's the safe way to play it and probably +$EV. I don't know about +CEV though, I put him on JT, JQ, JK pretty often.

Amything

08-24-2005, 09:07 AM

How much would villain have to bet on the river to get you to fold?

Hornacek

08-24-2005, 09:14 AM

in this situation, my arbitrary cutoff point between calling and folding is 150 chips.

tigerite

08-24-2005, 09:15 AM

I dunno, t200-250 probably. It depends.

For the times he does have KJ, QJ etc, I don't think this line loses out that much, maybe you can get a raise on the river which he calls, but not much more than that.

FWIW he had JJ..

45suited

08-24-2005, 09:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW he had JJ...

[/ QUOTE ]

NH Tigerite. Man, did he play that like crap!

Hornacek

08-24-2005, 09:26 AM

if villain had min raised u on the flop, how far do you go with the hand?

for me, if i got min raised cold after my own raise, i fold immediately.

tigerite

08-24-2005, 09:34 AM

If he min raised me into the bets and my raise, I drop it like it's 72o.

And, thinking about the river, t150 is probably the most I would call.

tigerite

08-24-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW he had JJ...

[/ QUOTE ]

NH Tigerite. Man, did he play that like crap!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - very. Although I think he got the most he could out of me bar about another 80 chips. I guess I may have called a small bet on the turn also.

fnord_too

08-24-2005, 09:51 AM

Yawn. WP, but pretty boring.

bennies

08-24-2005, 10:02 AM

hmmm, I could see myself playing top set oop like this, except I'd bet 150-200 on the river.

What's a better line? Checkraising the flop?

ilya

08-24-2005, 10:13 AM

I like how you played this hand, but I have a couple questions for you.

1, do you think your opponent may be too likely to accidentally read your hand correctly given this line (i.e., you might play 88 the same way, but he won't know that and will think that you would play it slower on the flop)?

2, considering your answer to #1 among other things, what's the max you call on the river?

3, how much more agressively do you play the turn/river if you hit an Ace/Jack on the turn/river?

45suited

08-24-2005, 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm, I could see myself playing top set oop like this, except I'd bet 150-200 on the river.

What's a better line? Checkraising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for one thing, I'm betting more than t70 on the river with a full house, that's for sure. At least t150. If I scare him off, so be it.

And for me anyway, the flop was a little too coordinated to smooth call tigerite's raise considering that there were two other guys left in the hand yet to act. I would have re-raised the flop, I'm sure that others might not, but I'm not into slow playing sets on a board like that in a multi-way pot. There was plenty in the pot at that point to re-raise and hope that someone came with you. But that's just my style...

bennies

08-24-2005, 10:56 AM

thanks, nice post.

schwza

08-24-2005, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 (t2122)
MP1 (t2400)
MP2 (t1210)
MP3 (t995)
CO (t1515)
Button (t735)
SB (t845)
BB (t828)
Hero (t1775)
UTG+1 (t1205)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t30, 3 folds, MP2 calls t30, 2 folds, Button calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t120, MP2 raises to t300, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t570

[/ QUOTE ]

you're saying you're concerned that villain will read us as TPTK and try to move us off it? i don't think that happens very often.

ilya

08-24-2005, 11:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 (t2122)
MP1 (t2400)
MP2 (t1210)
MP3 (t995)
CO (t1515)
Button (t735)
SB (t845)
BB (t828)
Hero (t1775)
UTG+1 (t1205)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t30, 3 folds, MP2 calls t30, 2 folds, Button calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t120, MP2 raises to t300, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t570

[/ QUOTE ]

you're saying you're concerned that villain will read us as TPTK and try to move us off it? i don't think that happens very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

not at the $33s, I agree. but perhaps at a higher level. doesn't seem like a bad idea to consider whether a line might be too exploitable by a good player.