Possible Cheating (Long-ish) Please Help

[THWAP!]

Hi,

I need some help. This is the situation, and I will try to describe it as neutrally as possible.

I typically play online, and sometimes in casinos. I play for middle-ish stakes. I also play in a weekly home game that has a $20 buyin. Recently, my roommate, whom I've been helping teach play online, has started playing in the game. I figured it would be a good way to help him learn the game. My roommate is smart, plays out of my accounts, and has done well at poker at low stakes.

This weekly game is with friends who are not poker players. They are there to have fun, and they are, in general, relatively poor players.

Recently, my roommate has been doing very well at the game. He has racked up wins of around $100 a night in a .10/.20 game. He plays very tight, but generally gets action on hands (it's a very loose game). He often shows down things like sets.

Two sessions ago, he had a good session. He had KK versus AA and sucked out. He had QQ versus AA and sucked out. I was not involved in any of the hands.

Last session, he won about $100. I was not present for this game. He had AK on an AK9 board and sucked out versus 99. He had 33 versus KK on a K93 board, and made quads on the turn. He was apparently dealing this hand. Another hand, he had AQ versus QQ and AJ on a AAQ board and the money went in the middle.

Tonight, I played in the game again. This is my last time playing in the game (I'm moving to a new town). So, we were joking, and I'm like "maybe i'll run as well as you run tonight." and he says "oh, don't worry. then i'll win it off you when i cold deck you. like maybe set over set or a freeroll."

In this game, he was dealing half the hands. I got dealt a nut straight, three sets, including a set over set, and also a few boats. I'm doing really well. People are making Very Expensive second best hands against me. He is playing very tight, as usual.

Then this hand comes up. a bunch of limpers, i limp in ep with Jc Tc. he limps, too. The flop is Qh 9h 8s. Someone bets, i raise, he reraises all in, and i call. He shows Jh Th and turns a heart. Ok.

Shortly thereafter, this hand comes up. It's folded to him, and he raises. This generally means a premium hand, though I know that he is capable of playing me differently, since I am one of the more experienced players in the game--i can make laydowns or calls that other people won't make. I don't say this to be arrogant, but simply to establish that our states of mind when we're playing each other are clearly different than when we are involved in hands against anyone else in the game. One caller, and I call on the button with KsTs. We're pretty deep. The flop is Qs Js 9c. I check, he bets the full pot, and I call. There is about 10 in the pot. Turn is an offsuit 2. I bet 10, he moves in for 50 more. Obviously I call. He turns over As2s. I offer to run it twice, and he immediately declines. the river is a spade. what's notable is that my rooommate is very risk averse, and i think it's both unlikely that he will play the hand like this--later on, he said that he thought i was capable of folding a set here, and he had outs--and i thought it was especially strange that he wouldn't agree to run it twice.

after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.

the events above are relayed in the order they happened. i then said stuff to other people in the game, and they observed it. they have claimed to see the same thing, though they are not experienced gamblers. my judgment is somewhat biased since i feel like i would be on the wrong end of this. at the same time, the fact that this many colddeckings have happened, and this strange pattern of events leaves me wondering. I know weird colddeckings happen, but this kid seems to be dancing in between raindrops at all the weirdest times, and then i see that the shuffle appears to be weird.

So a few questions,

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

(2) If you think he is cheating, what evidence do you think is the most compelling? Alternatively, if you do not think he is cheating, what omission from the fact pattern gives you reason to believe that no cheating is occurring?

(3) If you believe he is cheating, how should I resolve the situation? Bear in mind that I am leaving town, but that other people's money was at stake here too. Also say what you would plan to do in the case of an anticipated denial. bear in mind that since this person is my roommate, and i have financial dealings with him (things like playing off my accounts online, settling up rent payments and stuff), that i would have to tread somewhat carefully.

I know this was long, but I wanted to be precise about the fact pattern and the sequence, and I also wanted to be even handed. your help is much appreciated.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
In this game, he was dealing half the hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh??????


[ QUOTE ]
...after this, I notice something about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be incredibly stupid to have not noticed his overt deck-setting the first time he dealt a hand. Actually, you all must be incredibly stupid to have continued playing with this person.

[RunDownHouse]

There is no reason to take the deck off the table at any time, and anyone who does so should be regarded with suspicion immediately.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

100%

[THWAP!]

he dealt half the hands, and someone else dealt half the hands. and also, we're giant, lazy retards....

seriously. you're in a game with friends. FRIENDS. some of them hold their cards at 90-degree angles and other people can sometimes see them. that's the kind of game it is. you're not on the lookout for collusion artists. it's a .10/.20 game. let's just say that it's not the type of situation where you're on the lookout for cheating. and the dude is my roommate. and the stakes involved aren't significant (unless you generate a colddecking situation when the stacks actually get deep).

right. this was SO OBVIOUS, and I had absolutely no reasons not to raise a stink right there on the spot with a friend of mine in a friendly game. after all, i just liberally accuse people of cheating and take steps to prevent cheating in friendly games. anyone who doesn't is a huge effing moron. and if you do suspect cheating, it's really stupid to wait to ask other impartial people and then decide a course of action. i am so stupid.

keep in mind that this is the first time that i played with my roommate where he was dealing a substantial number of hands. i did end up noticing. i pointed it out to other people who definitely aren't experienced gamblers and wouldn't be counted on to notice themselves. but they agreed that they saw what i saw. now the trick is what inference to draw from it, and this is where i want unbiased people to help me.

i hope the sarcasm was evident here. sometimes you ask help on these forums, and you get this extremely condescending reply. it's sometimes more helpful if you just think about the state of mind in the OP's post, and why he's asking the questino. chesspain, i know you're a respected poster around here, so you can take my comment as a more general one (that no one will pay attention to anyway).

[capone0]

yes he cheats, ask for the money back. a friend of mine used to cheat, used to peak at the flop before he delt. would call large raises with terrible hands like 105o and 104 and flop 2 pair in miracle fashions. we wouldn't let him deal but we still let him play but he wasn't allowed in any of the bigger games on campus. he's actually a pretty good player, he wins decently online grinding, he just couldn't stop cheating for a while, it was kinda rediculous.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

I need some help. This is the situation, and I will try to describe it as neutrally as possible.

I typically play online, and sometimes in casinos. I play for middle-ish stakes. I also play in a weekly home game that has a $20 buyin. Recently, my roommate, whom I've been helping teach play online, has started playing in the game. I figured it would be a good way to help him learn the game. My roommate is smart, plays out of my accounts, and has done well at poker at low stakes.

This weekly game is with friends who are not poker players. They are there to have fun, and they are, in general, relatively poor players.

Recently, my roommate has been doing very well at the game. He has racked up wins of around $100 a night in a .10/.20 game. He plays very tight, but generally gets action on hands (it's a very loose game). He often shows down things like sets.

Two sessions ago, he had a good session. He had KK versus AA and sucked out. He had QQ versus AA and sucked out. I was not involved in any of the hands.

Last session, he won about $100. I was not present for this game. He had AK on an AK9 board and sucked out versus 99. He had 33 versus KK on a K93 board, and made quads on the turn. He was apparently dealing this hand. Another hand, he had AQ versus QQ and AJ on a AAQ board and the money went in the middle.

Tonight, I played in the game again. This is my last time playing in the game (I'm moving to a new town). So, we were joking, and I'm like "maybe i'll run as well as you run tonight." and he says "oh, don't worry. then i'll win it off you when i cold deck you. like maybe set over set or a freeroll."

In this game, he was dealing half the hands. I got dealt a nut straight, three sets, including a set over set, and also a few boats. I'm doing really well. People are making Very Expensive second best hands against me. He is playing very tight, as usual.

Then this hand comes up. a bunch of limpers, i limp in ep with Jc Tc. he limps, too. The flop is Qh 9h 8s. Someone bets, i raise, he reraises all in, and i call. He shows Jh Th and turns a heart. Ok.

Shortly thereafter, this hand comes up. It's folded to him, and he raises. This generally means a premium hand, though I know that he is capable of playing me differently, since I am one of the more experienced players in the game--i can make laydowns or calls that other people won't make. I don't say this to be arrogant, but simply to establish that our states of mind when we're playing each other are clearly different than when we are involved in hands against anyone else in the game. One caller, and I call on the button with KsTs. We're pretty deep. The flop is Qs Js 9c. I check, he bets the full pot, and I call. There is about 10 in the pot. Turn is an offsuit 2. I bet 10, he moves in for 50 more. Obviously I call. He turns over As2s. I offer to run it twice, and he immediately declines. the river is a spade. what's notable is that my rooommate is very risk averse, and i think it's both unlikely that he will play the hand like this--later on, he said that he thought i was capable of folding a set here, and he had outs--and i thought it was especially strange that he wouldn't agree to run it twice.

after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.

the events above are relayed in the order they happened. i then said stuff to other people in the game, and they observed it. they have claimed to see the same thing, though they are not experienced gamblers. my judgment is somewhat biased since i feel like i would be on the wrong end of this. at the same time, the fact that this many colddeckings have happened, and this strange pattern of events leaves me wondering. I know weird colddeckings happen, but this kid seems to be dancing in between raindrops at all the weirdest times, and then i see that the shuffle appears to be weird.

So a few questions,

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

(2) If you think he is cheating, what evidence do you think is the most compelling? Alternatively, if you do not think he is cheating, what omission from the fact pattern gives you reason to believe that no cheating is occurring?

(3) If you believe he is cheating, how should I resolve the situation? Bear in mind that I am leaving town, but that other people's money was at stake here too. Also say what you would plan to do in the case of an anticipated denial. bear in mind that since this person is my roommate, and i have financial dealings with him (things like playing off my accounts online, settling up rent payments and stuff), that i would have to tread somewhat carefully.

I know this was long, but I wanted to be precise about the fact pattern and the sequence, and I also wanted to be even handed. your help is much appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buy a $6 automatic shuffler at Wall Mart

Problem solved.

[soko]

This is why the poker gods invented things like "Cutting the deck" and "placing the cards on the table".

Don't feel bad, I've caught a deck setter before and it took that uncomfortable confontation with him to learn to kindly ask anyone who is dealing to not handle the deck in any suspicious manner. I will stand up and collect cards in the process of being delt and ask for a redeal if I see the deck wasn't cut first, make it part of the house rules and nobody can argue.

[MrMonkey]

Even in a friendly game, the deck is always above the table and should always be cut. If somebody forgets to cut the deck INSIST that it be cut. Very few people find this offensive because for experienced card players, passing the deck to the right to be cut, and then having it cut, is part of the ritual of playing cards. (I grew up playing lots of card games, so when I shuffle a deck I put it on my right to be cut without thinking, and when I see a deck sitting to my left I cut it without thinking). I'm guessing some players are even superstituous about cutting the deck, since that is the final determination of who will get dealt which cards and the deck is set for the hand after that.

I agree, 100% chance he is cheating. I have actually been through this twice in my 0.25/0.50 nl poker group at school in the last two years with two different people. One of them was sloppy and just handling the cards under the table like your roommate, although the other one, who is pretty clever, had actually invented some semi-sophisticated trick shuffles and cuts of his own and was a decent mechanic. It took a very long time for anybody to catch on.

Anyway, I have some advice for how to confront him. First of all, confronting him alone is best in my opinion. Don't take any 'I don't know what you're talking about' bs from him, he's obviously cheating and you can enumerate hands and descripe his deck handling methods and eventually he won't be able to deny it anymore.

The most difficult thing is figuring out where to go from there. My poker group in college was also a group of friends to a certain extent, often doing non-poker related things together. What myself and a few friends 'in the know' did against the two different cheaters was allow them to keep playing in games and just keep an eye on them. After having been caught it's unlikely he'll try it again anyway.

I'm sure people will disagree with me on this, but I don't recommend letting anybody else know who doesn't already know. I think this would only create more problems than it could solve. If you're pretty sure he won't cheat again I'd leave it at that. We infact had some threats of physical violence and intimidation in one instance when somebody found out about another player's cheating (of course, 0.25/0.50 nl being slightly higher stakes there were a few players who had lost a few hundred dollars to this player).

[EStreet20]

He's cheating, you guys are allowing him to do so by not making and enforcing a rule where he has to deal on top of the table. I'd say something to him and egg him on till he takes a swing, then I'd kick the ever loving [censored] out of him and be able to claim self-defense.

[Lottery Larry]

STOP LETTING PEOPLE SHUFFLE THEIR OWN DEALING DECKS!

How many [censored] times does this have to be said?? TRAIN THESE PEOPLE ON PROPER SHUFFLING & DEALING PROCEDURES and ALWAYS PRACTICE THEM YOURSELF.

"i have not said anything to him.

i then said stuff to other people in the game, and they observed it. they have claimed to see the same thing, though they are not experienced gamblers. "

WHY THE [censored] DIDN'T ANYONE SAY ANYTHING???


Damn, that's annoying.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
seriously. you're in a game with friends. FRIENDS. some of them hold their cards at 90-degree angles and other people can sometimes see them. that's the kind of game it is. you're not on the lookout for collusion artists. it's a .10/.20 game. let's just say that it's not the type of situation where you're on the lookout for cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]
BULLSHIT! Friends don't cheat friends, or what kind of friends are they?

And Mr "it's a .10/.20 game" he's making 500 BIG BETS A NIGHT!!!

"and the dude is my roommate. "
Hey, clueless, your roommate doesn't give as much of a [censored] about you as you THINK he does.

" and the stakes involved aren't significant (unless you generate a colddecking situation when the stacks actually get deep).'

If you're playing $0.10/0.20 and $100 isn't significant, then WHY are you playing [censored] dime poker??


"this was SO OBVIOUS, and I had absolutely no reasons not to raise a stink right there on the spot with a friend of mine in a friendly game."
More importantly, you have an implicit duty to protect the OTHER players from a goddamn cheat!


"and if you do suspect cheating, it's really stupid to wait to ask other impartial people and then decide a course of action. i am so stupid."

No, but you don't encourage the [censored] either. Shut it down the FIRST time! Change the dealing procedures RIGHT THE [censored] NOW!

"keep in mind that this is the first time that i played with my roommate where he was dealing a substantial number of hands. "
If it takes more than 2 times of his dealing ANY hands, you need to question your own standards.

" now the trick is what inference to draw from it, and this is where i want unbiased people to help me."

Learn proper shuffling and dealing procedures and make sure EVERYONE that you play with follows them. If they refuse, then sit out every hand they deal, watch them like a hawk while they are dealing and point out what they are doing wrong EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN TIME!

"i hope the sarcasm was evident here. sometimes you ask help on these forums, and you get this extremely condescending reply."

And SOMETIMES, when someone is doing something that 1) they should know better about and 2) we have discussed in great detail before on this forum, they DESERVE a GODDAMN condescending reply.

Man oh man, I have to go calm down....

[Lottery Larry]

"8. Dealer responsibility rotates around the table clockwise; the button indicates the dealer position. Two decks are provided for the table; we will alternate decks, shuffling one deck while a hand is being played with the other.

SHUFFLING- The player to the right of the active dealer is responsible for shuffling the previously-used deck each hand. The shuffler should insure that the deck is properly randomized before play, using a mix of shuffling techniques. This shuffling should include at least 5 and preferably 7+ riffle shuffles.

Once the deck has been sufficiently randomized, the shuffler should square up the shuffled deck, put the cut card on top and pass the deck to the appropriate dealer.
If the deck is fumbled, a card is exposed, or any question arises as to the randomness of the shuffling or the exposure of some of the deck to another player, the shuffler should take back the deck, reshuffle for randomization and then pass the deck carefully in the preferred manner.

WASHING- Once every few rounds or less, the deck should be “washed” by the shuffler. Without impeding the progress of the hand currently dealt, the shuffler should spread the cards out, face down, and then mix them together-the cards should remain face down and flat on the table.
Once washed, the shuffler should gather up the cards and shuffle thoroughly, then pass the cards on to the proper dealer-to-be with the cut card on top.

COUNTDOWN- When possible, the shuffler should first count down the deck, in order to insure that the proper number of cards are in the deck.

CUTTING- The player receiving the shuffled deck- who will be dealing the next hand with that deck- should cut the deck, making sure the cut card is on the bottom to hide the bottom card while dealing. The cut should be preferably 3 or more piles of varying size.
Again, if the deck is fumbled, a card is exposed, or any question arises as to the exposure of some of the deck to another player, the future dealer should take back the deck, reshuffle for randomization and then pass the deck carefully in the preferred manner to a player not in the current hand to be cut."

Learn it, practice it, DO IT! One major key to cutting off cheats is this one
"The cut should be preferably 3 or more piles of varying size."
I can give exact methods for this if you'd like

Also, some places have Dealer -2 shuffle, Dealer -1 cut and then hand to the Dealer to pass out the cards.
LL

[THWAP!]

chill out. sorry. i'm not in the home poker forum often. because i'm not playing home games often. Oops.

it's a friendly game, you don't expect cheating. and with the crap you see online, you (if you want not to go insane) eventually just say "that's poker" if you're on the wrong end of set over set.

when you see potential cheating, sometimes it's best to think about the best way to handle the situation, before you do something accusing or vaguely accusatory without enough proof. that's not unreasonable. or you want to observe and have other people observe, just in case you do catch someone redhanded. also reasonable, i think.

in short. chill the [censored] out.

[Lottery Larry]

Well, SOME of us taking cheating, and the general rules of poker, more seriously than others.

So, no, I WON'T chill the [censored] out. Don't make posts complaining about cheating, then get all lolly-gaggy ABOUT the cheating, and expect anything different than what you just got, at least from me.

PS- And you REALLY have no damn excuse, after THIS post:
"Background on me. I play somewhat for the money, but mostly for achievement. This year, I quit my job and started playing for a living. I've done well. I'm now comfortably beating 5/10 NL and 15/30 limit on various sites."

[gmunny]

The best way to reduce the possibility of cheating is to put proper controls (rotating deal, someone else shuffling, someone else cutting and keeping cards on table) in place before the cheating takes place. This eliminates most of the problems before the game even starts. I've played with most of my friends for over 10 years and play at stakes we can easily afford, they are like family, yet we still rotate the deal, cut the deck and shuffle other's deals.

Another way to look at it is why give people on the fence of morality an open door to cheat? It's like leaving your dog home alone with a nice juicy steak on the table. Blah..blah..blah..
G$

[jedi]

I can't believe this is happening. Why is he shuffling 1/2 the time? Why aren't the cards always on the table?

And for the love of God, have someone cut the cards! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=home&Number=2417225)

[Lottery Larry]

Okay, I'm calmer now. I was a bit over the top on the responses- obviously it hit a nerve.

I think you have a responsibility to the others in that group to cut off the cheating possibilities, even if you are leaving. If you are a pro, you have to know much more than they do. I may have assumed too much knowledge on your part- if you're just an online pro, you don't get exposed to any of this normally. I assume you watch out for online collusion- why didn't this ring the same type of bell for you?

Whether or not you confront your "trustworthy" roommate (who is playing with your money on your online account- have you checked for any fund transfers, BTW?- and probably cheating you at live poker games) is up to you.
Do you know what your goal/hoped-for resolution is for this? Are you looking to get money back? Get a confession?

It's really hard to tell from your responses in this thread if this is at all important to you. So, it's tough to answer (but easy to react to, obviously)

My apologies for the extreme nature of some of my responses. It's a personal issue for me and I've addressed similar things before on this forum (as you may have noticed now)

[masse75]

[ QUOTE ]
chill out. sorry. i'm not in the home poker forum often. because i'm not playing home games often. Oops.

it's a friendly game, you don't expect cheating. and with the crap you see online, you (if you want not to go insane) eventually just say "that's poker" if you're on the wrong end of set over set.

when you see potential cheating, sometimes it's best to think about the best way to handle the situation, before you do something accusing or vaguely accusatory without enough proof. that's not unreasonable. or you want to observe and have other people observe, just in case you do catch someone redhanded. also reasonable, i think.

in short. chill the [censored] out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has got to be the DUMBEST response ever. You solicit opinions about cheating, then tell us to chill out?

Next time your roommate comes home with a new watch, think to yourself, "I paid for that."

Then again, it's only .10/.20

[Dbldaggers]

It is obvious he is cheating.

Now what to do?

It has been mentioned before and you seem not to think it is important to protect yourself from this guy.

Chill out?

The guy wins 100 dollars a night in a .10/.20 game by (hmm.... this is a family forum) over you and your friends.

How trustworth is this guy? It sounds like you have no reason not to trust him otherwise.

but dude, it will be hard to chill out if money is missing from your online accounts or from your bank account.

Imagine your chagrin if you are missing a few checks?

or you start to new charges on your credit cards you never made...

chillin out may be a bit tough then.

CYA on all money matters. don't think it can't happen cause it happens everyday.

DD

We had the exact same problem in my home game. I talked to the guy by himself. He admitted it right off the bat and felt horrible. He was going through some tough financial times and needed a quick buck. I felt for him but was still pissed. So, we let him stay in the game and just kept an eye on him. Hasn't been a problem since. We also changed our shuffling/cutting procedures.

My suggestion is to have another shuffle underneath the table and, kind of jokingly say something like "man, lots of people dealing in weird ways, we should set something so we're all doing it the same way."

That way, he's not accused, but you solve the problem.

Just my 2 cents.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
That way, he's not accused, but you solve the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since its pretty clear he's guilty, I see no problems accusing him.

[CORed]

I don't care if your playing with your mother, your wife, your best friend and a priest: Shuffle in turn, shuffle on the table and cut the cards. Better yet, person to the right of the dealer shuffles, person to left of dealer cuts, and dealer deals. BTW, your "friend" is no friend. He is a cheating bastard. Lose him.

Also, change the passwords on your online accounts and don't let him play from them any more. If he will cheat you, he will steal from you.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.



[/ QUOTE ]

um...you're not sure if he's cheating? Really?


--Zetack

[theghost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.



[/ QUOTE ]

um...you're not sure if he's cheating? Really?


--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy needs to get his ass kicked, you owe him nothing, he is a scumbag. How many weeks in a row has he been stealing $100 out of your friendly game?

F this guy. I would ask him to move out, and you are effing nuts to let him play off your accounts.

[John Bedtelyon]

"and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. "

You're an idiot, I couldn't stop laughing after reading Lottery Larry's posts and your retorts.

Sorry to be so negative but you really are somewhat of a jackass.

You are basically asking if he cheats when you stated clearly he does. He moves the cards around after looking at them?! Maybe this isn't cheating anymore

He looks at what cards are to come? Still cheating.

Why the question? You said flat out he does this. His miracle card keeps coming, and you see him bring it to the top of the deck? And you STILL ask if this is cheating?

Sorry, I'm done.

JMB


PS-I should flame you more.

[bdypdx]

[ QUOTE ]
keep in mind that this is the first time that i played with my roommate where he was dealing a substantial number of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why was he dealing a "substantial" number of hands? I also play in home games with friends. The typical rule is that the deal passes from player to player, the cards are ALWAYS on the table, and the player to the right cuts the deck.

And to quote chesspain....

"You must be incredibly stupid to have not noticed his overt deck-setting the first time he dealt a hand. Actually, you all must be incredibly stupid to have continued playing with this person."

-bdy

[bdypdx]

[ QUOTE ]
and also, we're giant, lazy retards....

[/ QUOTE ]

tru dat!

[Kosstic518]

I say you get your money back then take a aluminum bat to his knee caps.

[grandgnu]

I think the OP deserved this, since he obviously isn't bright enough to realize when someone does something THAT clearly right in front of him.

Who is worse, the person who takes advantage of another, or the person who allows himself to be taken advantage of?

To show I'm not without any shred of compassion, I had a problem in my home game where a friend I grew up with was "forgetting" to post his antes and also splashing the pot with less chips than whatever the bet might be (i.e. tossing in 50 chips on a 150 bet).

He was very entertaining and people enjoyed having him in the game, but many were getting upset that he kept "forgetting" his antes and would try to get away with it whenever he could. He just acted like it was a big friggin' joke, but with money involved there's no joking in my view.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
He just acted like it was a big friggin' joke, but with money involved there's no joking in my view.

[/ QUOTE ]

The proper response to his "joke" would be to start shorting HIS pots, as he was scooping them in. Call them bet rebates.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
He was very entertaining and people enjoyed having him in the game, but many were getting upset that he kept "forgetting" his antes and would try to get away with it whenever he could. He just acted like it was a big friggin' joke, but with money involved there's no joking in my view.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even worse is the guy in one's home game who snidely replies "O.K., Mr. Chip Cop," when you remind him for the upteenth time that he forgot to post his ante.

[Lottery Larry]

[quoteEven worse is the guy in one's home game who snidely replies "O.K., Mr. Chip Cop," when you remind him for the upteenth time that he forgot to post his ante.

[/ QUOTE ]

"You're welcome, Mr Thief"

(you raise? I re-raise!)

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]
chill out. sorry. i'm not in the home poker forum often. because i'm not playing home games often. Oops.

it's a friendly game, you don't expect cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's actually reasonable to think that you are playing in a friendly game, but please realize that you are already doing thing at least one thing meant to prevent cheating: burning cards before the flop, turn, and river.

The whole reason for doing this is to make it tough for someone marking cards to get information about upcoming cards.

So there's no reason you can't also ensure that you are doing things like cutting cards and shuffling properly, without expecting anyone to be cheating.

In this case in particular, it is highly likely someone already is cheating. Whether you confront him or not, take the simple steps to protect your game.

[pshea]

the only viable solution to this problem is quite clear, you hang him from his balls and beat him with dead chickens.

he is cheating if he plays with the cards under the table and you see him. If i read correctly you stated you saw him switching cards, how much more evidence do you need. Youre either in denial or id hate to say it, dumb. If he was my friend he wouldnt be after he cased the deck on a hand that was between me and him.

good thing youre moving

Yeah, the fact that he's switching cards mid-hand is pretty compelling evidence. You are in kind of a tough spot because this guy is your roommate and apparently your friend. I think you must realize that he's cheating and were giving your friend the benefit of the doubt, but based on the info you've given us it's pretty clear that he's cheating. You need to talk to him and, more importantly, the other players in the game who are going to be losing all their money to this guy once you leave.