Crappy top OESD/oc folds on the turn

[DavidC]

It's bonus-whoring time, and that means tight opponents, G-damnit! Converter appears to be down when I started this message. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

The two EP players are tight, but the table is running well, so keep in mind that they could have a wider range of starting hands than normal. Post-flop they appear to be playing pretty straight-forward though.

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10 handed PP 2/4, hero is on button with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

PF: sb/bb post
4 calls, two folds, hero calls, sb folds, bb checks

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 6 players, 6.5 sb
sb checks, utg bets, utg+1 calls, two folds, hero calls, sb calls.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4 players, 5.25bb
sb checks, utg bets, utg+1 calls, (7.25bb) hero folds.

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[benkath1]

Why not raise that flop for a free turn?

[Marquis]

I'd raise the flop for the free card and the way you played it, call the turn.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise that flop for a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

That might be a good idea...

However, there's a few things on this flop that bother me...

My overcard might not be any good.

I might be drawing to 6 outs.

I might be drawing to a chop.

I might get re-raised on the flop, or donk-bet on the turn.

Edit: And the pot isn't really huge or anything.

[Marquis]

You have enough outs so that it's close enough to a value raise AND it might get you a freebie. Even if it doesn't work for the free card you really aren't losing much.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
You have enough outs so that it's close enough to a value raise AND it might get you a freebie. Even if it doesn't work for the free card you really aren't losing much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm...

Well, giving me about 6 outs, which is fair, although it doesn't take into account redraws against me, it's about 3:1 to hit the river.

If I raise, the sb folds, and the utg guy re-raises, I'm absolutely screwwed. This will happen rarely though... I'm still willing to consider it.

[benkath1]

Might you pick up some fold equity if a scare card falls? Like maybe the board pairing?

I agree with marq, I'd call the turn.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Might you pick up some fold equity if a scare card falls? Like maybe the board pairing?

I agree with marq, I'd call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tight EP limpers betting the flop and calling rather than raising?

What do they have that they're folding? If they have a set, they're not folding. If they have an OESD, (88?) they're not folding, unless it's the bottom end. If they have 2 pair, they're not folding. I don't know... I"m looking at the board and the players and not seeing a lot of folding equity once they call.

I don't particularly want to drive AJ out of the hand at this point, either.

If they have a four-flush, they're not folding.

If they have overcards and a backdoor flush (weird but possible) they might fold that if it's two back to them (sb or if utg reraises), which would clean up a Q out potnetially, but at too high of a cost to justify cleaning up that out alone (maybe if I can increase folding equity and maybe get a fc at the same time, though....).

[DMBFan23]

http://img47.echo.cx/img47/4271/birdmanneverfold1yi.jpg

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
http://img47.echo.cx/img47/4271/birdmanneverfold1yi.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't argue with the Lugz.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Might you pick up some fold equity if a scare card falls? Like maybe the board pairing?

I agree with marq, I'd call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tight EP limpers betting the flop and calling rather than raising?

What do they have that they're folding? If they have a set, they're not folding. If they have an OESD, (88?) they're not folding, unless it's the bottom end. If they have 2 pair, they're not folding. I don't know... I"m looking at the board and the players and not seeing a lot of folding equity once they call.

I don't particularly want to drive AJ out of the hand at this point, either.

If they have a four-flush, they're not folding.

If they have overcards and a backdoor flush (weird but possible) they might fold that if it's two back to them (sb or if utg reraises), which would clean up a Q out potnetially, but at too high of a cost to justify cleaning up that out alone (maybe if I can increase folding equity and maybe get a fc at the same time, though....).

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of hands are you giving a tight player credit for limping in EP? I don't see many that would hit this flop, other than the obvious set, but tight wouldn't be limping 55 or 66 utg, right? 88 is possible, but having one in your hand makes it a little less likely. I would think 99 and up would get a raise preflop if they are halfway decent.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Might you pick up some fold equity if a scare card falls? Like maybe the board pairing?

I agree with marq, I'd call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tight EP limpers betting the flop and calling rather than raising?

What do they have that they're folding? If they have a set, they're not folding. If they have an OESD, (88?) they're not folding, unless it's the bottom end. If they have 2 pair, they're not folding. I don't know... I"m looking at the board and the players and not seeing a lot of folding equity once they call.

I don't particularly want to drive AJ out of the hand at this point, either.

If they have a four-flush, they're not folding.

If they have overcards and a backdoor flush (weird but possible) they might fold that if it's two back to them (sb or if utg reraises), which would clean up a Q out potnetially, but at too high of a cost to justify cleaning up that out alone (maybe if I can increase folding equity and maybe get a fc at the same time, though....).

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of hands are you giving a tight player credit for limping in EP? I don't see many that would hit this flop, other than the obvious set, but tight wouldn't be limping 55 or 66 utg, right? 88 is possible, but having one in your hand makes it a little less likely. I would think 99 and up would get a raise preflop if they are halfway decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all about table conditions.

BisonBison, many moons ago, wrote a post with the subject, "Can I limp UTG with 22 at the 0.5/1 game?". The body of the message was: "Yes."

Literally. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's all about table conditions. These guys weren't rocks.

[DavidC]

Hey guys.

Consensus seems to be raising on the flop to get a free card.

One last bump to see if anyone agrees with my line here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[aces_dad]

Given your line, I think I peel the turn giving myself 6outs which need 6.7:1 and getting 7.25:1, since the turn action is behaving same as the flop and this makes a SB c/r less likely. Having the 8 in your hand makes me fear the pocket 8s less though I do agree hitting your straight and chopping is the worst case scenario here.