Its a raise....

[closer2313]

and its not even close. I remember reading this as a response to a hand where KQ was being played in EP and he asked if he should raise or just call in that spot. As a reader of this forum for the last couple of months, I realized that Im not being aggressive enough before the flop (postflop too). So this brought me up to a question, why do we raise preflop anyway?

I've come to a somewhat conclusion that we raise because
1) We have the best hand and want to get more money in the pot
2) To isolate a bad player to exploit his poor play after the flop
3) We raise in late position with a marginal hand to fold out the blinds and thus steal the pot

When we are in early position, we have no information on what everyone will do on this particular hand. We have a general idea of what some of the players will do (whether they are tight or loose, passive or aggressive) but we dont have a definite answer. So lets say we are at a 10 handed table with KQo and are UTG. Whats the best play? If we raise, its because we think we have the best hand and want to get more money into the pot. But how good of a hand is KQo compared to some other hands?

I was using a chart to compare some pot equity of what I consider marginal hands. KQo, KJo, ATo, QJo, AJo, etc.
ATo, AJo have very similar pot equities versus the same number of opponents. For one opponent 63.6 vs 62.9 for 9 its 14.3 vs 13.4. Most of us would raise AJo preflop (I think) and muck ATo. Why? High card strength is pretty similar, Connectivity is similar, Suitedness is nill, and their equities are very close. Why is AJ considered a much better hand than AT?

Comparing something like KQ and KJ. 1 opponent their equities are 61.4 vs 60.6 vs 9 its 15.1 vs 13.9. I dont think anyone is raising KJo UTG but in response to that thread KQ was a raise "and its not even close" Both hands have an equity advantage vs 9 opponents. Both have High card strength, lack suitedness and have similiar connectivity. Why is KQ such a better hand than KJ, that you would raise with one and probably muck the other. Its like the difference between night and day, but Im just not seeing why.

KTs is actually a better hand then KQ in terms of pot equity but I dont know anyone who is raising that UTG (at least I haven't seen a hand like that posted).

Why is it a sin to open limp in MP? Why is ok to limp in EP but not MP. LP makes sense to me because you can fold out the blinds and steal the pot, plus your added advantage of position makes or saves you alot of money. What is the difference between UTG+1 and MP1 that makes the difference between open limping with 66 or raising it?

So why are we raising preflop? Thanks for any thoughts you can give me. I try to think of the hand in a specific situation but the true reason for raising vs calling vs mucking is just eluding me.

[MrWookie47]

Are those PokerStove numbers versus random hands? If so, here's the problem: when you raise, you're not called by random hands. You're called by better than that, and the lower the high card strength, the more likely you are to be dominated by those who call you. The more likely you are to be dominated, the more likely you are to lose a lot of money showing down a second best hand. There's more to poker than just the frequency with which you win pots. You have to win large pots and lose small ones.

Limping in EP is OK because you can limp at loose tables and get lots of callers to pay off your speculative hands. If you're opening in MP, you've already lost a lot of people who aren't calling to see the flop and pay you if you hit. Also, there are now fewer people who will get in your way if you raise. A raise from MP is still something of a steal, but you want to do it with a stronger hand than you would on the button because you are more likely to get called or 3bet, and if you do get called, you're more likely to be OOP against a caller. Not very many hands have an EV greater than the blinds, so you'd often very much like to pick up the blinds with a raise.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I've come to a somewhat conclusion that we raise because
1) We have the best hand and want to get more money in the pot
2) To isolate a bad player to exploit his poor play after the flop
3) We raise in late position with a marginal hand to fold out the blinds and thus steal the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

You left out a very important reason why we raise preflop: to protect our hand.

While AJo & ATo have very similar pot equities vs. KQo, a good player will not coldcall with these hands and will only 3-bet vs. a loose raiser or a suspected blind stealer. And, just like KQo, both of these hands play much better vs. just a few opponents than vs. a full a table. Yes, every so often you will connect with a monster with KQo (or AJo or ATo), but we're not just looking to win that one huge pot every once in a while--we're looking to win a lot of pots. If we limp a hand like KQo or AJo from EP, whether first or second in, then we make it more likely that other players will limp behind us, while each limper makes it less likely that we will win that particular pot. By raising, we drive out good players who do not have a premium hand...there's no driving out the "any two will do" crowd, but that's okay because most of the time they are calling our raise with vastly inferior hands & vastly inferior postflop skills.

By raising KQo in EP, you put a good player in a position where he cannot play his ATo or A6s later in the order, which is obviously good for us. And you still have good chances vs. several of his potential 3-betting hands, like JJ-99.

[ QUOTE ]
I was using a chart to compare some pot equity of what I consider marginal hands. KQo, KJo, ATo, QJo, AJo, etc.
ATo, AJo have very similar pot equities versus the same number of opponents. For one opponent 63.6 vs 62.9 for 9 its 14.3 vs 13.4. Most of us would raise AJo preflop (I think) and muck ATo. Why? High card strength is pretty similar, Connectivity is similar, Suitedness is nill, and their equities are very close. Why is AJ considered a much better hand than AT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, their high card strength is not similar--a pair of jacks is a stronger hand, and more likely to take down the pot, than a pair of tens. Again, it rolls back to how your hand matches up vs. potential 3-betting hands behind you; with AQo or KQo you still hold 2 overcards to several potential 3-betting hands. This is simply not true with ATo/KTs; while some aggressive players will 3-bet with a hand like 55 or 66 to isolate, this is not the norm (and especially not in microlimits). AJo is one of those weird hands that falls into a sort of limbo from EP, which is why some noted poker experts recommend raising with it, others say to call the blind, and still others suggest you fold it there. I am personally in the camp that says if you're going to play it from EP, raise to narrow the field & increase your chances of winning.

KQo falls into a similar category; KQs is generally considered a good raise from EP, while KQo is more borderline. Again, I would say that if you intend to play it, raise with it--to narrow the field, to represent a stronger hand than what you have, and to keep your opponents guessing somewhat when you open from EP.

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it a sin to open limp in MP? Why is ok to limp in EP but not MP. LP makes sense to me because you can fold out the blinds and steal the pot, plus your added advantage of position makes or saves you alot of money. What is the difference between UTG+1 and MP1 that makes the difference between open limping with 66 or raising it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to openlimp from MP because you are kind of caught in no-man's land. You are usually not ensured enough opponents to make limping with multiway hands (like suited connectors, etc) profitable, and it is often likely that if you limp someone will raise behind you to isolate, especially at higher limits. So if you have a hand that you'd like to play, it is often better to make the raise yourself--again, you are limiting the field you'll play against and representing a stronger hand than you actually have. Sometimes you will win the blinds outright. Sometimes you will get one or two callers and win with a pot bet. Sometimes you'll get 3-bet and have to check/fold the flop. Other times you'll get 3-bet and draw out on your opponent(s). The key is that you're putting the pressure on them to decide if they want to get involved with a borderline hand, and many times they will choose not to. Note that this does not mean that you should be routinely openraising with 87s from MP...just that you should not be openlimping with it in most situations.

The big difference in openlimping 66 from EP vs. MP is the amount of information you have when you make your decision. Limit hold'em is all about information--when you're in EP you have very little information about the strength of your opponents' hands, which is why you should be playing relatively few hands there. The further back you move in the order, the more information you have, and the more hands you can play (and raise with). If it's folded to you in MP1, you already know that 3 players did not like their hands. You know that there are only 6 players left to act behind you. Sheer numbers dictate that it is less likely that 1 or more of 6 players will have a strong hand than it is that 1 of 9 will. If you're on the button, you now have information on 7 of your 9 opponents, which allows you to play much looser in most circumstances. With a hand like 66, you often limp from EP on a loose/passive table & play for set value--you will be folding to a flop bet the majority of the time, but will sometimes take down a huge pot when you catch a set or better. If you're in MP & nobody has entered the pot yet, your focus should now shift from winning a big pot every once in a while to winning this pot right now--and by raising, you reduce the number of overcards that are likely to be in play against you and therefore increase your chances of doing just that. Again, note that I do not routinely raise 66 from MP1; I usually will either openlimp with it or fold it there. But from MP2, I do normally openraise--that one extra piece of information makes the difference for me.

[ QUOTE ]
So why are we raising preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure I'll leave something out, but I raise...

-To exploit a perceived equity advantage. If the hand I'm holding figures to have an equity advantage over my opponents, then it makes sense to force them to put more money into the pot.
-To eliminate the competition. The fewer opponents I have, the more likely it becomes that I will win that particular pot.
-To isolate, as you said.
-To steal the blinds, again as you said.
-For image/metagame purposes. Very rarely.
-To represent a stronger hand than what I actually have, in order to gain increased folding equity pre- and postflop.

[closer2313]

Since you took so much time to type that up, I wanted to say thanks alot. I really appreciate it. Now I have a better idea of whether to call raise or fold hands like AJo/ATo/KQo/Kjo.

Thanks again!