taking out johan in the ninth [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

MrFeelNothin

08-23-2005, 11:55 PM

This was the best game I have ever been to in my life. The atmosphere was electric, players on both teams were laying out to make ridiculous catches and the pitching was nasty.

At the time, I didn't like the move to take Johan out, but in retrospect.....the White Sox had Iguchi, Everett, Konerko and Rowand coming up....all righties (everett a switch) who have the ability to hit the ball out over the short porch in right. Konerko hit a big HR against Johan just last week.

However, against Nathan they basically had no chance.

The weak-hitting Perez pinch-hit for Iguchi, hmmmm Nathan v. Perez or Santana v. Iguchi? I prefer the former.

Everett has power from both sides, so no advantage there, he was able to draw a walk.

Konerko/Rowand...they were simply overmatched. Neither one came close to hitting a pitch.

There is a reason Nathan is our closer....we trust him in must-win games, which this most certainly was.

Huskiez

08-24-2005, 12:00 AM

I personally think it's terrible. Throughout the year he has been pitching up to 120 pitches. It's fine to pitch him as long as he gets rest and is not pitching on a tired arm.

Since the ASB, he has gone 93, 94, 114, 94, 110, 119 pitches. I don't understand why Gardenhire wants him to go a complete game last time around against the Chisox in a 5-0 game, where I probably would have taken him out after 8 innings (at around 110), but takes him out when he's shutting out the Chisox on only 95 pitches on a 3 hitter. He had retired 15 of the last 16 batters and was on a roll.

We know Santana has his stuff today, and Nathan could bring anything. I keep him in there.

Voltron87

08-24-2005, 12:03 AM

i dont think its bad.

although it depends on how satana had been in the 7th and 8th, and the matchups, and how much nathan had been used......

Huskiez

08-24-2005, 12:05 AM

Santana is pitching better against R (.212) than L (.272) this year. Also, Iguchi and Konerko are hitting better against R this year.

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There is a reason Nathan is our closer....we trust him in must-win games, which this most certainly was.

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If Benitez was your closer, would you trust him?

I don't know, Nathan is pretty good, and for almost any other pitcher I would pick him to go in. But this is Santana.

Finish the job, Johan.

08-24-2005, 12:07 AM

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When the guy you're bringing in is Joe Nathan it can never be that bad a move to take a guy out.

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It's not like Nathan is a K-Rod or a Rivera. He almost blew the All-Star game this year.

MrFeelNothin

08-24-2005, 12:08 AM

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He had retired 15 of the last 16 batters and was on a roll.

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The last batter in the 8th crushed a ball to the wall in DEAD center. Only a Torii Hunter-like catch by Lew Ford saved him from a 2B or possible HR. It looks like they are saving that catch for WebGems, so I'm not sure if it would have been out or not. Santana only gave up 3 hits, but he wasn't as dominating as he can be, they did hit some balls hard.

The decision to leave him in has very little to do with pitch counts. It has to do with the fact that a lot of dangerous righties are due up in a 1 run game including one that has 32 HR and hit one last week off Johan.

Pitch counts are overrated.

JayLear

08-24-2005, 12:09 AM

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When the guy you're bringing in is Joe Nathan it can never be that bad a move to take a guy out.

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It's not like Nathan is a K-Rod or a Rivera. He almost blew the All-Star game this year.

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True. He's better than "K-Rod".

Huskiez

08-24-2005, 12:13 AM

OK you might be right. I wasn't at the game so I can't comment too strongly but initially when I saw they were pulling him I was thinking wtf is Gardenhire doing?

I feel like he just nurses Santana way too often. I'm interested to see what Gleeman has to say.

08-24-2005, 12:16 AM

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When the guy you're bringing in is Joe Nathan it can never be that bad a move to take a guy out.

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It's not like Nathan is a K-Rod or a Rivera. He almost blew the All-Star game this year.

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True. He's better than "K-Rod".

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Ok, well you know who the best closer in baseball is.

MrFeelNothin

08-24-2005, 12:17 AM

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Santana is pitching better against R (.212) than L (.272) this year.

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Where is Sample-Size Man?

Over his career lefties bat .222 off him and righties bat .226. but righties hit far more HRs proportionally- 14 this year to only 3 by lefties.

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Also, Iguchi and Konerko are hitting better against R this year.

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Iguchi's OPS splits are nearly identical, but that is irrelevant because Gardy knew he would be pinch-hit for.

As for Konerko, well.....he has 1 HR every 11 AB vs lefties and 1 HR every 14.2 AB vs righties. Over his career every meaningful statistic is significantly better against lefties. Can I mention again that he went yard off Santana just last week?

Against Nathan these guys were helpless. This was really a no-brainer. 1-run game against the division leader, onr of the biggest games of the year, we live or die with our closer.

MrFeelNothin

08-24-2005, 12:17 AM

JayLear

08-24-2005, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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When the guy you're bringing in is Joe Nathan it can never be that bad a move to take a guy out.

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It's not like Nathan is a K-Rod or a Rivera. He almost blew the All-Star game this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. He's better than "K-Rod".

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Ok, well you know who the best closer in baseball is.

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Yeah. He's currently on the DL.

MrFeelNothin

08-24-2005, 12:20 AM

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OK you might be right. I wasn't at the game so I can't comment too strongly but initially when I saw they were pulling him I was thinking wtf is Gardenhire doing?

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My initial reaction exactly.

Edge34

08-24-2005, 01:23 AM

Very good move IMO.

95 pitches, even though this is Johan, is getting up there, and the Sox were hitting the ball hard.

If it was any team BUT the Sox tonight, I think Gardy leaves him in. But in a 1-0 game against the division leader, where you absolutely must win basically every game you play against them the rest of the year...bring in the closer, and save Johan for his next start.

BTW, I also think Freddy Garcia did a fantastic job tonight, with the glaring exception being Jacque's bomb.

08-24-2005, 04:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When the guy you're bringing in is Joe Nathan it can never be that bad a move to take a guy out.

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It's not like Nathan is a K-Rod or a Rivera. He almost blew the All-Star game this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. He's better than "K-Rod".

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well you know who the best closer in baseball is.

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Yeah. He's currently on the DL.

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Ok, Joe Buck. I slamma lama ding dong on your bandwagon.

SL__72

08-24-2005, 11:06 AM

1-0, bring in Nathan. 2-0 let Santana pitch.

Actually I'm sure it was more of a judgement call by Gardenhiere based on how Santana looked in the 8th and how well Nathan has been pitching lately.

andyfox

08-24-2005, 01:10 PM

My son was at the Dodgers/Mets game where Pedro almost pitched a no-hitter. And lost the game too. He too said it was the most exciting games he's been to.

In that one, Tracy let Penny pitch the 9th inning, despite the fact he had given up 10 hits. Then again, with Gagne on the DL, he had nobody close to Joe Nathan available.

ThaSaltCracka

08-24-2005, 01:11 PM

he should have let him finish because him getting a CG would have helped me emmensely in my fantasy baseball league.

andyfox

08-24-2005, 01:14 PM

Looking at your avatar, I think we can establish a rule of thumb, or rather, a rule of forefinger: based on Mr. Palmiero and Mr. Clinton, any time somebody points their finger to make their point, don't believe a word they say.

ThaSaltCracka

08-25-2005, 01:49 AM

You forgot to list Nixon as well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

irishpint

08-25-2005, 10:18 PM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
When the guy you're bringing in is Joe Nathan it can never be that bad a move to take a guy out.

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It's not like Nathan is a K-Rod or a Rivera. He almost blew the All-Star game this year.

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nathan is just as good/better than them. lower ERA/whip than Krod, more K's than Rivera...they are in the same class, that's for sure. But you're right, the allstar game!!!!1

Huskiez

09-04-2005, 05:33 PM

gardenhire blows. and he won't even learn his lesson because they came back to win.

how does he pull him when he's pitching a two hitter against one of the better offenses in the AL?