Overcards missed flop again!

[MadMat]

I still feel lost in these situations, and as they come up so often I'm sure I'm leaking like a sieve here

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: MadMat is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MadMat raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MadMat bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Overcards and B/door flush, but out of position, would check/call be a better line here?

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MadMat bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, BB calls.

I had planned to give it up here unimproved, but now I have a flush draw in a big pot!

River: (9.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MadMat checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, BB folds, MadMat folds.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Missed the flush, and really don't see what hands call all the way that I'm ahead of, should I make the crying call?

[aK13]

Why did you bet the turn? I would not call the river even if it was 20BB pot.

That's it, I am putting you on my friends list and searching you out if you are considering calling with an UI king high.

[MadMat]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you bet the turn? I would not call the river even if it was 20BB pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was thinking about the overcard outs, I'm assuming we'd like KQ AT etc to fold here

Mat

[cfjr2]

Flop - if you must bet here check raise, you may get anyone facing 2 to fold. if checked through take the free card, you don't have much of a hand here.

Turn - Your on a draw - take the free card if you can call 1 to you for the flush draw, probably a fold if 2 to you.

River - good fold, you lose to any PP, any A,2,3,4,5,6 or Q, or KJ. You had nothing but a bluff and when you checked you gave that up (not that the check was bad but the only chance you had was to continue playing as if you had a pocket pair and this bluff is likely not good 1 in 6 times).

If you played the earlier streets differently this may have played differently.

[GTSamIAm]

I don't see much reason to bet the turn.

[Fantam]

I dont think that your hand was strong enough to raise preflop with from middle position. If you had been in late position with a chance to steal the blinds, then I think raising would have been ok.

The flop was only worth checking IMHO, because overcards are a weak draw even with a backdoor flush. So I think that a check/call would have been better. You would not have wanted to be raised.

The flush draw is great to have on the turn. However you cant really bet this for value. There is a possibility that someone has already made a straight. I think that checking the turn may have been better.

I agree with your folding on the river. I dont think that K high would have won this hand against 2 other players. I doubt that CO would have bet the river with less than K high.

[baronzeus]

This isn't horrible, but I check/call a turn against 3 people and bet/call a turn against 1 person.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
I had planned to give it up here unimproved, but now I have King high in a big pot!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

I check call this turn.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think that your hand was strong enough to raise preflop with from middle position. If you had been in late position with a chance to steal the blinds, then I think raising would have been ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are in the hijack with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You're not open raising? I know you don't want to fold.

I am struggling with some of the open raising moves I make, but I would have open raised and bet the flop. I see nothing wrong with that.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think that your hand was strong enough to raise preflop with from middle position. If you had been in late position with a chance to steal the blinds, then I think raising would have been ok.

The flop was only worth checking IMHO, because overcards are a weak draw even with a backdoor flush. So I think that a check/call would have been better. You would not have wanted to be raised.


[/ QUOTE ]
would you fold this preflop?
would you open limp preflop?
would you limp EP with this preflop?
if you had K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif would you bet this flop?
if you had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif would you bet this flop?
if you had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif would you bet this flop?

why and why not? then apply those to ideas/thoughts to this hand and compare. then discuss because i think your preflop and flop strategy/suggestions need to be...rethunk.

[grjr]

If this is the kind of table where 3 or 4 people are calling MP raises then I don't want to raise KTs without being in the CO or Button. From MP I would want to limp or fold because playing this hand out of position after a raise sucks. Believe it or not you won't be arrested for open limping.

Now that we have raised why would we want to bet into 3 people with nothing on a BPF? (badplayerflop) You're not going to win the hand there without one high card flopping. Might as well check/call or check/fold depending on what everyone else does.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the kind of table where 3 or 4 people are calling MP raises then I don't want to raise KTs without being in the CO or Button. From MP I would want to limp or fold because playing this hand out of position after a raise sucks. Believe it or not you won't be arrested for open limping.

Now that we have raised why would we want to bet into 3 people with nothing on a BPF? (badplayerflop) You're not going to win the hand there without one high card flopping. Might as well check/call or check/fold depending on what everyone else does.

[/ QUOTE ]

well maybe it comes down to a difference in player style.

1. i don't open limp in middle position (MP1 is EP, so that is different IMO)- but that might be my 6-max talking /images/graemlins/grin.gif.
2. you have OC which we don't have to worry about reverse domination as much as if we had AT and someone has A6. we have the BDFD, and i'd like to fold any A,Q,J or BD/images/graemlins/club.gif flush draws if possible incase no one has a flush draw and my K/images/graemlins/club.gif comes on the turn.

3. the pot is big enough to risk 1SB.

[AussieBattler]

grunch

what was your table read here? what was your table image like? Basically, will they respect your bets if you represent big pair? reads are a luxury I know...sigh

Anyway if Im NOT folding players out Im not raising preflop even if Im first. preflop this is a speculative hand. Assuming I dont PFR then Im probably calling one SB on the flop hoping for a flush draw (might be -EV. Ideally Im last to act after better here. On the turn, because I pickup a flushdraw on the turn and because I havent shown aggression so far and because Im 2nd of 4 to act Im probably going to check call there and hope I draw for free.....

However to put the shoe on the other foot, if I raised this preflop AND if I think Ill be able to take down the pot with a flop bet Im betting.....

Basically if our opponents are the type of players who arent folding until they miss on the river then Im not putting much more into this pot...let them have their little victory and Ill be observant as to what is shown down and wait for a better spot.

oh and when a passive bets the turn he has something and you need a flush or King here to win most of the time

anyway Im often strugling in this situation and am looking forward to reading other posts and learning something from my grunch

[Innocentius]

I think very much in this hand comes down to reads on CO and button. The pf raise is good in my opinion, unless you have a read on either of them as very loose.

On the other hand, if they are only somewhat loose, and rather passive, the two coldcalls are something to worry about. Typical coldcalling hands for LP players are QQ-55, AK-AJ, KQ-KJ, QJs, JTs. Obviously, QQ-55, AK, KQ, KJ are hands that you would not like to be up against on this flop.

If you think that they are likely to lay overcards down (not likely if they are calling stations), a flop bet seems ok. Without any reads, I think I would check, but I also think it is a marginal situation.