2nd Hand of 15 +1 call this?

[Roland32]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1300)
Hero (t1480)
SB (t1500)
BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ (t1500)
UTG (t1480)
UTG+1 (t1440)
MP1 (t3300)
MP2 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls t100, CO calls t100.

Flop: (t370) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Villain checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t240</font>, Villain calls t240, CO folds.

Turn: (t850) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: (t850) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets t1140 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1120 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3110

[Roland32]

Sorry I forgot to put in my comment. Should I have called. it looked like a move to me.

[tigerite]

No. I wouldn't. I don't like your preflop raise at all by the way.

PS The way he played this hand smells like a set to me or some freaky two pair (JT or T9). He has you beat, anyway. Or, just maybe 87. I could see that.

[Roland32]

This raise is pretty standard for me. What is wrong with it?
This is Pokerstars so stacks are deeper. i also have position.

[tigerite]

Has nothing to do with deep stacks or having position. It's far more +EV to just call here with such low blinds, but ok keep raising to one limper. I promise you it's a leak though

[ReDeYES88]

I made a resolution with myself a long time ago not to go broke with top pair calling a push when the blinds are very low, and it doesn't matter what street.

Lots of poker to be played.

Let the hand go.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
This raise is pretty standard for me. What is wrong with it?
This is Pokerstars so stacks are deeper. i also have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

jsut cause the stacks are deeper doesnt mean you should be making reraises with hands like A10s.

[11t]

Yah I would agree with limping.

If you are gonna raise just raise it to 60-80 though, all you are tryiing to do is isolate the limper or just make him outright fold and if he is folding to 120 he is probably folding to 80.

[Roland32]

I agree that it might be a leak but why?
My thinking is this, one limper on button I am facing 2 random hands in the blinds who will fold 70% of the time. The limper will have a wide range of hands. THe best of which he will reraise and I will fold. The worst of which he will fold most of the time. But many hands he will call, including ,weak Aces, and other hands I am ahead of.
More importantly the majority of the time he will check the flop I will bet and he will fold. These types of hands is how i build a stack.
I honestly would like to understand this better. This a situation I have pondered but currently have it in the "if its not broke dont fix it " category.

I like your raise pre-flop. With only one late limper and the blinds left ATs is a good hand. The raise was probably too large though. 80 would have been better.

Top pair best kicker is a great flop and calls for a three quarter to full pot raise which you did. Now the surprise comes when he calls - what has he got? Pocket 5s and 6s are unlikely because he shouldn't have called your pre-flop raise. If he did then I'm prepared to lose all my chips. If he's got pocket 10s or above I'm also prepared to lose all my chips. That's poker.

Its even more unlikely that he called with 87, but not impossible.

Most likely holdings are K10, Q10, J10 pocket 9s and maybe 10-9.

The turn is where you made your mistake by not betting. You have to bet here to get information. If he's drawing to an open-ended straight you can't give him a free card by checking. If he's got pocket 9s a bet would likely make him muck. If he calls or (check raises) a big bet again then goes all in on the river you know you're beat and can throw your hand away.

Now he goes all in. when the nine flops. Your weakness on the turn makes it possible he is making a move. The fact he went all-in also points to it being a move. If the nine completes his nut straight or makes trips why go all in against someone who showed weakness on the turn. Same with two pair. I'd try extract money.

I still think he may have K10, Q10 or at worst maybe a Jack.
I'd call all in.

[wookie]

absolutely you should be betting the turn.

but since the turn was not bet I would fold to the all-in - your stack is too healthy not to wait for another chance.

of course that is what he may be thinking you will do, but you were outplayed - let it go.

- w

[Roland32]

Well I should state at this point for information sake that he had 95o. SO your right I definately should of bet turn. Ironicaly enough, my check was to induce a bluff on river if I was in fact ahead. I figure this was the same as betting and being called on turn. Any thoughts on that?

I don't think that your hand was anywhere near good enough to try induce a bluff. There is simply so many cards that could potentially beat a single (not even top) pair. If you still had top pair on the turn then maybe (but still probably not). You needed to bet the turn in order to 1. gain information on whether he had a jack 2. not give a free card to a drawing hand 3. preferably take the pot down there and then with your tenuous holding.

That's not to say your play didn't work. I still think that the all in on the river will be either an outright bluff or a semi-bluff with a worse hand than yours enough times to warrant a call. So maybe your inducing a bluff play worked - good result, bad decision.

[bawcerelli]

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you clearly have to bet the turn to find out where you are.

[Roland32]

Well I agree I misplayed the turn but I believe it was because I used a strong play in a bad spot. When I raised preflop and bet flop and he called both I started to think he might have been slow playing a monster. So if I bet the turn and raises then I have to fold to reraise even if reraise is a bluff, or a stand w a lessor hand. However if I check the turn,(risking giving a free card) I now show weakness with a hand I am either way ahead of or way behind. Inducing a bluff enough to offset the free card I give and ensuring a river showdown.

[bawcerelli]

you overthought it on all levels. you gave a free card to a calling station that turned over 95o to beat you. keep it a bit more simple.

[barry111]

It was a case of ---&gt; FPS
I think I was the villian on this hand. If you can verify your Roland on PS then I would be happy to give you my thoughts on this hand.

[pooh74]

Roland, Was that me?

Anyway, I play the stars turbos (16s and 27s) and almost never raise ATs in level I, even when folded to me. (sometimes if its folded to button or sb). This is not the stage of the game where your $ is made. Drawing hands and weakish Aces can hurt you early. -EV for sure.

gotta lay this river down too. leaky from PF to river.

I would limp behind with AJ as well perhaps. Trust me, its players that get googly eyed over there suited and medium aces that are easy prey.

hope this helps

pooh

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I should state at this point for information sake that he had 95o. SO your right I definately should of bet turn. Ironicaly enough, my check was to induce a bluff on river if I was in fact ahead. I figure this was the same as betting and being called on turn. Any thoughts on that?

[/ QUOTE ]

PF raise=bad
Flop bet=good
turn check=good
river call=bad

Ironically, i like the turn check cas I want to save up my stack for later in a situation less ambiguous. Ok, it turned out he was a donk or had you on AK (stupid in and of itself) and got lucky. But, the flat flop call indicates great strength. If this were later on, I'd love this flop obviously. But with 3 players in calling god know what PPs, I am a little hesitant after being cold called for 2/3 pot.

[fisherman112]

dont give a bad player credit for playing well. he has a hand here a lot. also, why get involved in a marginal situation with low blinds.
do you think you're better than your opponents? so why make calls like this when you can exploit big edges later.

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I should state at this point for information sake that he had 95o. SO your right I definately should of bet turn. Ironicaly enough, my check was to induce a bluff on river if I was in fact ahead. I figure this was the same as betting and being called on turn. Any thoughts on that?

[/ QUOTE ]

PF raise=bad
Flop bet=good
turn check=good
river call=bad

Ironically, i like the turn check cas I want to save up my stack for later in a situation less ambiguous. Ok, it turned out he was a donk or had you on AK (stupid in and of itself) and got lucky . But, the flat flop call indicates great strength. If this were later on, I'd love this flop obviously. But with 3 players in calling god know what PPs, I am a little hesitant after being cold called for 2/3 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could be a donk or maybe I had a read.
My Thoughts: I dont like my call of the PFR, but as I recall you had been entering every pot up until this point and I did not respect your raise. After the flop I which I had a part of, I had you on any two high cards, and I thought you were taking a stab at the pot, so I call. If you would have bet on the turn I could have let this go, but your check on the turn allowed me a free card. As for the river this was still level 1 and you had already put your chips in the middle several times, so there was a chance you would call my push, If you did not then I would win a nice pot and not have to show my junk hand.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I should state at this point for information sake that he had 95o. SO your right I definately should of bet turn. Ironicaly enough, my check was to induce a bluff on river if I was in fact ahead. I figure this was the same as betting and being called on turn. Any thoughts on that?

[/ QUOTE ]

PF raise=bad
Flop bet=good
turn check=good
river call=bad

Ironically, i like the turn check cas I want to save up my stack for later in a situation less ambiguous. Ok, it turned out he was a donk or had you on AK (stupid in and of itself) and got lucky . But, the flat flop call indicates great strength. If this were later on, I'd love this flop obviously. But with 3 players in calling god know what PPs, I am a little hesitant after being cold called for 2/3 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could be a donk or maybe I had a read.
My Thoughts: I dont like my call of the PFR, but as I recall you had been entering every pot up until this point and I did not respect your raise. After the flop I which I had a part of, I had you on any two high cards, and I thought you were taking a stab at the pot, so I call. If you would have bet on the turn I could have let this go, but your check on the turn allowed me a free card. As for the river this was still level 1 and you had already put your chips in the middle several times, so there was a chance you would call my push, If you did not then I would win a nice pot and not have to show my junk hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...i wasnt even there I guess. But...

Lunchmeat, even if you dont respect his raise, what is your 95 ahead of? 72? this type of play is very -EV for level I of a sng. Youve been watching too much tv. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[rydazzle]

I think a raise here w/ no limpers isn't a leak, but with the limper I agree that a call here is better.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
you overthought it on all levels. you gave a free card to a calling station that turned over 95o to beat you. keep it a bit more simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. hero doesnt know villain is a calling station so I dont know what you mean byt that...its not helpful.

2. How much would you bet this turn? the pot is 850, hero has ~1100 left. Any reasonable bet on this turn has to approximate half the pot or you might just beg for a reraise. either you're ahead or behind here. No reasonable draw on the board.

Yeah, I guess you're right...If villain flips his cards over this is an easy hand.

[bawcerelli]

[ QUOTE ]
and you had already put your chips in the middle several times, so there was a chance you would call my push, If you did not then I would win a nice pot and not have to show my junk hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP said this was the second hand of the tourney

[bawcerelli]

[ QUOTE ]

2. How much would you bet this turn? the pot is 850, hero has ~1100 left. Any reasonable bet on this turn has to approximate half the pot or you might just beg for a reraise. either you're ahead or behind here. No reasonable draw on the board.

Yeah, I guess you're right...If villain flips his cards over this is an easy hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd bet about 4-5 hundred. if i'm called i'm (probably) beaten. however, i've got to give my opponent an opportunity to lay down his hand, not give him a free card to catch me.

[Roland32]

Yes I have been outed as Roland, not that it ws that hard to figure out.

This turn pops up all the time for me. Still not sure how to play it.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2. How much would you bet this turn? the pot is 850, hero has ~1100 left. Any reasonable bet on this turn has to approximate half the pot or you might just beg for a reraise. either you're ahead or behind here. No reasonable draw on the board.

Yeah, I guess you're right...If villain flips his cards over this is an easy hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd bet about 4-5 hundred. if i'm called i'm (probably) beaten. however, i've got to give my opponent an opportunity to lay down his hand, not give him a free card to catch me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget the results! Whats he catching on the river? This is one of the most draw free boards possible. Villain called 240 in 370 pot on the flop, called a pf raise and I know nothing about him bc its the second hand. I am not necessarily going to give him credit for beating me, but, I am not going to bet 500 to find out here with my holding!!!

All in all, this is why AT sucks

[Roland32]

Of all my my recent posts this one is turning out to be the most helpful. My ROI has dropped from a little over $3 a game in the 16's to about 2.50. Over the last 200 or so. I am pretty sure I can narrow this down to loose play in the early stages. I will try to post some more early hands that have been a cause for concern

[bawcerelli]

i'm not sure what the level of play is like at 15+1 at pokerstars, but the 10+1 at UB i bet 500 on the turn and get called by ace high, or A5-A6.

[the_joker]

[ QUOTE ]
But many hands he will call, including ,weak Aces, and other hands I am ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

He will also call with stronger aces that he may have limped with (AQ, AJ). I'd just limp here mainly for flush value, because as you found out, you need to worry about overcards if your ten hits, and you need to worry about your kicker if an ace hits.

[barry111]

This was not the second hand of the tourney, there are only eight people left, and the op has already had all of his chips in the middle twice. Once to knock someone out (which he sucked out on) and another time he doubled MP1 up.

[Roland32]

If you look at the stack sizes the only people not at 1500 are people who were in the blinds prervious hand and the person who doubled. (Not Me)I am at 1480. SO yes this was second hand of the stt


But I do appreciate your thought process of how you viewed me. It is helpful.