JJ, what's your plan on the river?

[Bodhi]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 is a donkastic maniac, 90%, 20%, 1.8 (Hence, I left this table not long afterwards). MP2 is tight-passive preflop, and aggressive postflop, 12%, 1%, 1.8%.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (17.25BB)...

[Hoi Polloi]

River: bet out. Avoid check through; might get to 3-bet.

Turn: You should bet. Check through would suck. Betting will still get action--may get more action.

You're way ahead too many times here to not get as much money in as the competition will bear.

[Bodhi]

You hardly attempt to answer my question, and your advice against the turn check-raise is strange because I told you the guy to my left is a maniac.

[tyler_cracker]

I don't understand your turn check. Were you expecting the maniac to wait for the turn to start raising you, and wanted to trap MP2 in the middle of your check-raise?

I am even more confused by MP2's turn cap. Is he just capping for fun?

I think you should bet/call a brick on the river. I'm pretty lost about what to do if a spade hits, or an A or Q (or maybe even a 9). Maybe it's best to let the maniac bet your hand for you and see what happens? I don't really think you can fold unless one of the really scary cards hits (A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif) and MP2 is still frisky.

PS: 510 in the house!

[Bodhi]

Maybe check-raising the maniac here isn't as standard as I thought? The idea was very straight-forward: get more money in the pot.

[mr pink]

i'm not a huge fan of the turn check. having the turn checked through on a board that draw heavy would absolutely suck balls. i understand the guy on your left being a maniac and all, but the board is just too scary.

ok, so you check/raise the turn. the maniac does his thing but now mp2 decides to call/cap. i think you are in trouble here but he still could be fastplaying a lower set or 2 pair.

i think i'm bet/calling this river UI and bet/3betting if i fill up.

anyone agree?

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
You hardly attempt to answer my question, and your advice against the turn check-raise is strange because I told you the guy to my left is a maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like a plan to me:

[ QUOTE ]
River: bet out. Avoid check through; might get to 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your comment on the maniac is well taken. I wouldn't leave the table though.

[private joker]

I check-call the river unless you fill up. MP2 has AQ/Q9 almost all the time. His line on the turn screams the nuts. Check-call and hope he has a lower set, but bet-calling is wasting a bet.

[shant]

I think the turn checkraise is great. Those numbers don't look like the guy would ever check through the turn. You trap the other guy in for 2 bets also.

Checking the river can actually give you a lot more info then betting. Think about these two scenarios:

If you check the river and the maniac bets out, and then MP2 raises. What are you doing there?

If you check, and the maniac bets, and MP2 just calls, I'd checkraise.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I go for the c/c on the river, MP2's line is pretty weird. But he probably has something good.

[ QUOTE ]
Hence, I left this table not long afterwards

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you leave?

[shant]

I think he left because his position at the table sucks. I would've tried to switch seats. Party needs an easy seat switching process.

[Bodhi]

I don't play well with a maniac to my left. It's just something I've learned about myself through countless (bad) experiences and so I try to avoid it.

[gobboboy]

It looks like MP2 sensed weakness from you and decided to try to take on the maniac heads up. He probably had the same read you do. You have trips, even if you did get straighted in the eye with AQ you have tons of outs to a boat and you may even be good now.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

Oh, he just seems to juicy for me to try and leave that table.

It still can be very profitable to be at that table even OOP right? Just because we are stuck OOP does not mean we can't take all his money.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe check-raising the maniac here isn't as standard as I thought? The idea was very straight-forward: get more money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thought isn't terrible, but with a maniac wouldn't he likely raise your lead? And wouldn't that put two bets cold to the other player? I think that is the best idea.

[Bodhi]

What kind of hand do we want MP2 to fold? Obviously, he's not getting odds for a gutshot (against a single bet from MP1), and if he has a single pair he's drawing dead. The only made hand that has a chance is KJs, and then the villain is drawing to 2 outs.

[BBD]

I'd check/call unimproved on the river. I guess if I did fill up, obviously, bet/raise would be my line. Good chance we're still good here even UI.

Why did you check the turn? On a board like that the last thing you want to do is give your opponents a freecard. You are the aggressor, to big of a risk for it to get checked through. You need to bet this turn for sure. You may want to check/call the river unless you get your boat.

[davet]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn checkraise is great. Those numbers don't look like the guy would ever check through the turn. You trap the other guy in for 2 bets also.

Checking the river can actually give you a lot more info then betting. Think about these two scenarios:

If you check the river and the maniac bets out, and then MP2 raises. What are you doing there?

If you check, and the maniac bets, and MP2 just calls, I'd checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great thought.

But with a nine- outer, you have to call MP2 raise.

Check- call the river if a blank comes. full house should be self- explanatory.

I don't particularly like playing with super- maniacs either, they tend to cause far too many raising wars, and more often than not, you can be facing two bets cold. Another thing is that sometimes the table gets sucked into their joviality, and it begins to cost 2BB to see every flop, then capped everyround afterwards, if you aren't prepared for the swings, or a cold run of two hands, well...

Anyway, if a passive table is easier to beat, and less expensive, why wouldn't you want to move?

MP2's play seems pretty weird. I guess you have to put him on AQ, yet I don't think he played it optimally. Either that or he has Asxs (maybe he'd coldcall with AsJs?) or maybe QsJs.

Well, I think on a river blank, it is best to check, with the intention of raising the maniac, or calling the tightie. If the board pairs, I would definitely go for a check-raise, since MP2 would likely bet many hands for value against the maniac.

[jat850]

I would bet out the turn and I actually want the maniac to do his thing and raise. I am more concerned about MP2 if he cold calls or 3 bets. Does he have AQ, or Q9s (if he goes that low) to fill his straight? His turn action facing the cold call tells me what to do on the river. If he does not 3 bet, odds are he is on a draw. As played, his cap after the call is hard to read.

River: If I fill up... bet out...take no chance on check around. If you miss and MP2 cold called or 3 bet his first bet on the turn, then check-call the river even OOP to the maniac. Most good little maniacs return to near normal on the river and I can't see folding your set. Bet it for any blank, particularly if you get MP2 to fold by betting the turn.