A list of leaks.

[Eeegah]

I have leaks. Yeah, no kidding, and if I didn't I wouldn't be posting in ML /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've come a long way in the three months since I started playing Hold'Em, but I still have a number of things I need to correct. However, I've been on a nice rush this month so if I'm going to try to correct them I need to take a deliberate step away from the tables.

In light of this, these are some of the more general things that have been bugging me about my play of late.

<ul type="square"> Obviously, if I'm going to keep sitting at empty tables and let them fill up (which has worked wonderfully for me), I'm gonna need to work out shorthanded. I can hold my own for the most part, but I want to optimize how my starting hand requirements change as the table goes from 2 to 3 to 5 to 4 handed, and also how much I can get away with being aggro with, say, middle pair low kicker. HEPFAP has some stuff on it, but it's not as specific as I'd like. To be honest, I'm not even exactly sure what I can play HU: Harrington says you can play any two in NL tourneys when it gets HU but that's a completely different beast from Limit Ring where the implied odds aren't as large and we aren't paying antes.
When I have a backdoor flush draw on the flop and get one of my suit on the turn, I have a tendency to bet out rather than check. This isn't for value, and fold equity isn't a big deal here since anyone else with a higher flush draw isn't folding anyway. A semi-bluff HU is one thing, but (This is assuming I'm not sitting with other possibilities such as overcards.)
I don't spend enough time evaluating my position on any given street, especially when I'm drawing. I still don't discount much if at all for other people's possible flush draws, etc, and likewise I'm only now starting to factor in implied odds. I developed a bad habit of assuming that they'd cancel each other out. When I'm looking at a hand on 2+2 I often suprise myself with how little thought I would have put into it in my own game. In summary: I'm playing too fast, partly out of fear that not making a quick decision is a tell of weakness.
I might actually be too aggro postflop: my AF for the month stands at 3.89/2.96/2.30, for an aggregate of 3.12. My fold %'s by street are 20.8/14.2/12.9, so I don't know if I'm just being weak-tight or what.
I'm still a rock preflop, 18% VPIP and 11% PFR which is better than what it was but could be higher. I still have trouble recognizing when I can get away with, say, limping Axs in early position or playing suited 2-gappers late or whatever you kids do to loosen up.
I've become fairly meticulous when it comes to taking notes on players, particularly what specific hands I've seen the cold call with, and when they limp big hands preflop, as well as things like raising scare cards or calling down with K high. Unfortunately I never seem to use these enough. I make these reads, why don't I use them?
I have a really, really strong urge to quit while I'm way ahead that I often cave into. I quit after only half an hour today, 20 bucks ahead, and I didn't really need to.
[/list]

Feel free to comment on these or post your own list here; self-criticism is an important part of self-improvement /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, if I'm going to keep sitting at empty tables and let them fill up (which has worked wonderfully for me), I'm gonna need to work out shorthanded. I can hold my own for the most part, but I want to optimize how my starting hand requirements change as the table goes from 2 to 3 to 5 to 4 handed, and also how much I can get away with being aggro with, say, middle pair low kicker. HEPFAP has some stuff on it, but it's not as specific as I'd like. To be honest, I'm not even exactly sure what I can play HU: Harrington says you can play any two in NL tourneys when it gets HU but that's a completely different beast from Limit Ring where the implied odds aren't as large and we aren't paying antes.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you are SH, you should forget all hand charts, all fixed-formula guidlelines, and play 100% situational poker.

This means one one hand you might be playing like the biggest LAG maniac there ever was, 3-betting from the SB with 74o. A couple hands later, you might be playing tight and fold KQ for 1.5 bets. This happens becasue your opponents are changing thier tack constantly, and you have to adjust constantly. Your oppoent might be the worst player in the world; he might be the greatest. It doesn't matter. What does matter is when a game gets SH, things change in your opponent's mind at the drop of a hat. If you percieve that you have a lot of FE on this hand, raise any 2 cards in any position. If you feel that your opponent has you in a lock-vise, get out of the pot with anything short of something that has him beat.

Every hand is different. If you are playing chart-based kool-aid poker, you will lose.

[ QUOTE ]
When I have a backdoor flush draw on the flop and get one of my suit on the turn, I have a tendency to bet out rather than check. This isn't for value, and fold equity isn't a big deal here since anyone else with a higher flush draw isn't folding anyway. A semi-bluff HU is one thing, but (This is assuming I'm not sitting with other possibilities such as overcards.)

[/ QUOTE ]

There's more to this than meets the eye. What is your position? What are you drawing to? Do you have FE atgainst the opponent? Is the pot HU, 2-way, 5-way?

Since you're just starting to explore this sort of scenario, you might want to start looking in to 'checking with outs'. Sometimes when you are last to act and betting for FE on the flop, then turn a big draw, the best play could be to check. If you were called on the flop, you don't have 100% FE on the turn. If the pot is not big enough to call a raise with, or not big enough so that your turn bet is correct pot-odds wise just for the draw, then check and try to improve on the river for free. It saves 1 BB if you are behind, and just might induce action when you improve.

[ QUOTE ]
I've become fairly meticulous when it comes to taking notes on players, particularly what specific hands I've seen the cold call with, and when they limp big hands preflop, as well as things like raising scare cards or calling down with K high. Unfortunately I never seem to use these enough. I make these reads, why don't I use them?

[/ QUOTE ]

It may just be a simple matter that you haven't developed your poker mind enough to use them yet; it might be that your reads are so complex as to be unusable. Right now you're entering a great deal of detail about your opponent's play. This is good from the standpoint that you are watching what your oppoent's are doing. But it's bad in that you will never see that specific situation again. It will eventually get to the point where you are reading the reason your opponent made that play -- not the situation in which he made that play.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't spend enough time evaluating my position on any given street, especially when I'm drawing. I still don't discount much if at all for other people's possible flush draws, etc, and likewise I'm only now starting to factor in implied odds. I developed a bad habit of assuming that they'd cancel each other out. When I'm looking at a hand on 2+2 I often suprise myself with how little thought I would have put into it in my own game. In summary: I'm playing too fast, partly out of fear that not making a quick decision is a tell of weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a generalization, this is a major problem. In specific hands, it sometimes matters very little what your position is, becasue you have so much equity that you can stand any action. But in the vast majority of draws, you can handle a little action, but not a lot.

Start practicing this whenever you are playing a draw. When the action comes around to you, after you've answered the basic continue-or-fold question based on pot odds, ask yourself, "How much will I like this hand if it's rasied behind me?" It's a deceptively simple question that actually requires complex considerations to answer correctly. Who will raise? How many people will call? Will someone 3-bet? But the more you start asking this question, the better you will play your draws.

[GrunchCan]

Oh, another one...

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still a rock preflop, 18% VPIP and 11% PFR which is better than what it was but could be higher. I still have trouble recognizing when I can get away with, say, limping Axs in early position or playing suited 2-gappers late or whatever you kids do to loosen up.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a rock! Don't feel like you have to loosen up in order to meet some criteria. You are seeing a +EV number of flops, and your rasies seem +EV, too.

There is a lot of pressure within this forum to play optimal poker. Some of that means seeing exactly the right number of flops and raising exactly the right hands. In many cases people think that if they aren't meeting some 2+2 Master Standard, they are playing poorly. It seems like you've come to the same conclusion. 18% VPIP is not rickish play. In fact, it's about 3% higher than the recommended maximum for a moneybags player, which when I started here, was considered to be the 'right' number.

If 18% is right for you, then play it.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still a rock preflop, 18% VPIP and 11% PFR which is better than what it was but could be higher. I still have trouble recognizing when I can get away with, say, limping Axs in early position or playing suited 2-gappers late or whatever you kids do to loosen up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can you teach me how to be a PF rock? I struggle to keep below 20%.

If you are serious about opening up your rockishness, This is the source of all rock to semi-loose pre flop wisdom. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&amp;Entry=117881&amp;F_Board=holdem&amp;Thr ead=1767198&amp;partnumber=&amp;postmarker=) Make sure you read the quiz (take it) and then read Nate's summary of the answers to the quiz.

To save time you can skip any posts by, or about "The Matador". They aren't completely useless, but they take up a lot of the thread.

-D

P.S. For what it's worth E, I think you are the rising star of the ML board. Your posting quality is above average and improving all the time. I hope your game is the same.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
If 18% is right for you, then play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

I'm still amazed when I see flopme's stats (i think that's his name). The guy is like 13/8, but his winrate is impressive. When I saw his stats, I immediatly decided to tighten up and my play got much better. Don't play hands you are uncomfortable with and you will continue to win.

GrunchCan: I am continually impressed by your responses. Thank you, you are a major asset to this forum.

[GrunchCan]

Thanks, benkath1. I appreciate that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm just tryin to learn how to play...

[aces_dad]

Just in case anybody else wants to take this quiz, it's the post with the time stamp:

Re: You Play Too Tight Nate tha' Great 02/21/05 01:54 AM

[Eeegah]

Wow, these are going to take a few posts to respond to /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
When you are SH, you should forget all hand charts, all fixed-formula guidlelines, and play 100% situational poker.

This means one one hand you might be playing like the biggest LAG maniac there ever was, 3-betting from the SB with 74o. A couple hands later, you might be playing tight and fold KQ for 1.5 bets. This happens becasue your opponents are changing thier tack constantly, and you have to adjust constantly. Your oppoent might be the worst player in the world; he might be the greatest. It doesn't matter. What does matter is when a game gets SH, things change in your opponent's mind at the drop of a hat. If you percieve that you have a lot of FE on this hand, raise any 2 cards in any position. If you feel that your opponent has you in a lock-vise, get out of the pot with anything short of something that has him beat.

Every hand is different. If you are playing chart-based kool-aid poker, you will lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. I don't really vary my play that much, even SH, as I don't expect opponents to pick up on it much. Being able to dynamically read an opponent like that is something that's going to take an awful lot of experience.

This is all concerning near-empty 10-max games BTW; I have no experience with real 6-max play, although I should probably start.

[ QUOTE ]
There's more to this than meets the eye. What is your position? What are you drawing to? Do you have FE atgainst the opponent? Is the pot HU, 2-way, 5-way?

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter: I bet anyway. Which of course is where the problem is.

Away from the table, I can see that while there's often value in a semi-bluff 2 or 3 handed, it's not really going to do much good when it's 4 handed verses a bunch of folks with telephone icons. I bet out, and frankly don't even know why I'm doing it.

The "checking hands with outs, betting ones without" line is something I keep reading, think to myself "yeah that makes sense and I should be doing this," then forget when I'm at the table. Perhaps I'm letting ego or testosterone take over when I have cards in front of me, but I need to learn to be more selective with my aggression before I move on to higher limits. Other situations like WA/WB and such are also difficult for me to recognize, but those don't seem to be so incredibly common that I felt the need to list them.


[ QUOTE ]
It may just be a simple matter that you haven't developed your poker mind enough to use them yet; it might be that your reads are so complex as to be unusable. Right now you're entering a great deal of detail about your opponent's play. This is good from the standpoint that you are watching what your oppoent's are doing. But it's bad in that you will never see that specific situation again. It will eventually get to the point where you are reading the reason your opponent made that play -- not the situation in which he made that play.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I'm not noting that someone cold called with 74s because I expect him to specifically play that next time, but so I can note that yeah, he'll gladly play any suited against a raise and so things like isolation raises when he's still to act probably won't do much good. But then again just a simple glance at his VPIP could tell me that much.

I could say that I make these reads so I know whether or not to value bet a particular hand on the river, but frankly I'm probably going to do it anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
As a generalization, this is a major problem. In specific hands, it sometimes matters very little what your position is, becasue you have so much equity that you can stand any action. But in the vast majority of draws, you can handle a little action, but not a lot.

Start practicing this whenever you are playing a draw. When the action comes around to you, after you've answered the basic continue-or-fold question based on pot odds, ask yourself, "How much will I like this hand if it's rasied behind me?" It's a deceptively simple question that actually requires complex considerations to answer correctly. Who will raise? How many people will call? Will someone 3-bet? But the more you start asking this question, the better you will play your draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, although in many of these situations where I'm considering calling it's able to withstand action because it's a relatively strong draw (6 outs or more). I find it very rare that I can see the river with a gutshot, for instance, as if there's enough action by the turn to make it 10.5BB then I'm probably not going to be facing just one bet when it gets to me (or gets back to me).

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not a rock! Don't feel like you have to loosen up in order to meet some criteria. You are seeing a +EV number of flops, and your rasies seem +EV, too.

There is a lot of pressure within this forum to play optimal poker. Some of that means seeing exactly the right number of flops and raising exactly the right hands. In many cases people think that if they aren't meeting some 2+2 Master Standard, they are playing poorly. It seems like you've come to the same conclusion. 18% VPIP is not rickish play. In fact, it's about 3% higher than the recommended maximum for a moneybags player, which when I started here, was considered to be the 'right' number.

If 18% is right for you, then play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh that's not often the impression I get around here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

One thing I do notice is that I'm probably playing much too tight when I'm behind a PFR and there's a number of cold callers. There's a thread on the first page right now about calling with 66 after 2 cold callers, something I wouldn't think of doing. In fact, the only hands I've been cold-calling with have been strictly AQs, AJs and KQs, with the rest hitting the muck or 3-bet button: I cold called a total of six times in the last 30k hands (this doesnt count the blinds of course). Obviously cold-calling too much is a bad thing, but I probably could stand to do it a bit more if there are callers ahead.

Apart from that, I dont really see yet where I could loosen up unless I start considering things like A9o on the button after a limper or two, or playing more pocket pairs up front--little things like that which probably don't add up to much. I'm comfortable playing the hands I do now though, so I may change or I may not.

Thanks for taking the time to reply; I do appreciate it /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[GrunchCan]

Just one little comment...

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really vary my play that much, even SH, as I don't expect opponents to pick up on it much. Being able to dynamically read an opponent like that is something that's going to take an awful lot of experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me clarify a point I was trying to make. You may have already understood this, but many others may not have, and it's a very important point.

Understand the reason why you are adapting your play so quickly (eg, shifting gears). It's not to 'mix up' your play! As you say, many of your opponents won't notice the shift. Many more who do won't know how to react. There are however players even at .5/1 who do see the shift and adjust in a way that's at least approximately correct.

No, the reason why you shift gears so quickly is becasue you are adapting to your opponent's changes in his play. Not becasue you're trying to throw him off your game. Your opponents change how they play all the time. Sometimes they are 'out to get you'. Sometimes they feel lucky, or are on tilt, or are more focused, or watching TV, or showing off for a railbird, or trying some new move... There's millions of reasons why the opponent plays differently from hand to hand, but we don't care. All we need to know is how he's playing this hand, not why.

Also, don't feel like there's no hope for you if you can't percieve of these subtle changes. Nobody is born with this skill, but everyone is born with the ability. After a lot of experience -- and I do mean a lot, think 50k - 100k hands here -- it will come to you. Inspiration is mostly experience, and partly reaction.

[RatFink]

King Yao's book has a brief section on the differences between 2 handed - 6 handed SH play.

[ArturiusX]

I think your biggest leak Eegah is going too many bets without a hand.

[GrunchCan]

My copy shipped yesterday!

[Eeegah]

Oh snap I forgot about this book. Is it geeky and have lots of math? I'll drive to B&amp;N RIGHT NOW because I like books that are geeky and have lots of math.

[Marquis]

Yeah, you're a rock. On crack.

18/11 or whatever is fine. I was a winning 19/9 player before I switched to 6-max and I never considered myself a rock and still don't. I just thought all the 24/12 guys were idiots. /images/graemlins/wink.gif You can certainly be successful at 18/11. I might try to tone down the aggro a bit, tho. It sounds like you know how to do that on the turn already.