Bad Play or Bad Luck?

[ZManODS]

1/2 online game. Game is kinda weak.

Im on the button and get dealt 44. UTG comes in with a raise and its folded to me. I 3-bet and the blinds fold like expected. 2 to see the flop.

Flop (board: 5h Td As): (Damn) He checks, I check.

Turn (board: 5h Td As 7h): He checks, I check.

River (board: 5h Td As 7h 7s): He bets, I call.

He turns over KK and takes it down.
Was my preflop raise a good idea? I figured if a ragged board came up i would be able to take it but then the Ace scared me.

[Jeffage]

Fold preflop. Easy fold. 44 wants multiway...an UTG raiser likely has a big pair or AK type hand. You're way behind the former and only slightly ahead of the latter (plus your hand will be very difficult to play). After your poor preflop play u should have at least bet the flop...u hit what you were representing, and then u checked. You didn't even give him a chance to fold. But bottom line, the preflop play is real bad and then checking back when an ace flops adds to your problems.

Jeff

[Ed Miller]

Im on the button and get dealt 44. UTG comes in with a raise and its folded to me. I 3-bet...

Yuck. UTG would have to be a seriously loose raiser for me to even remotely consider this play. You are putting in 3-bets preflop to play against a hand that either will beat you 80% of the time or 50% of the time (and the 50% scenario, he will know when you are beaten, but you won't know when your hand is good, unless you spike your set).

[elysium]

hi z
bad entry. should have folded pre-flop.

[TobDog]

I agree here with the rest of the guys, I think that hand is probably gonna hit the muck preflop. But, what happens when you bet the flop instead of checking around? Do you think that your opponent will fold any non-ace hand? might be worth a bet, if you get check-raised, then you know you were probably beaten anyway, but I think that ace on the flop should scare him at least a little. I think that if you are going to play aggressively, then you should try to get him to fold after the flop. My 2c worth..

tobdog

[marbles]

If there's a good chance of folding the blinds and a good chance that the raiser has a non-pair (e.g. slick), there's absolutely nothing wrong with this 3-bet preflop. Good variation play.

As for the rest of the hand, not much you can do... Call me weak-tight, but I'd seriously consider mucking to that river bet. With the exception of KQs, just about anything he could have beats you.

[ZManODS]

"If there's a good chance of folding the blinds and a good chance that the raiser has a non-pair (e.g. slick)"

Thats exactly what i was trying to do. I figured i would have him beat the 2/3rd of the time he didnt flop something (assumming he did not have a pocker pair). I also assummed i would win a lot when he did flop something but i get my set.

I do agree however that i should have bet out on the flop and calling the river bet was wrong.

[CrackerZack]

I like the isolation play, but you picked the wrong place to try this though. UTG raises, all fold to you on the button... unless UTG is completely clueless of position your chance of running into a big pair here is just too good. if the raiser was MP or even better, LP then you are much less likely to run into a big pair, or even an ace which would give you more leverage to move him off his hand.

-Zack

[marbles]

"unless UTG is completely clueless of position your chance of running into a big pair here is just too good."

Have to disagree here. Let's say we know absolutely nothing about UTG. He likely fits into one of three categories with his preflop raise:

1. Clueless and aggressive: Knows nothing of position, but will raise any two pretty cards UTG. This includes any pair over 77, paint, any ace.

2. Fairly knowledgeable and conservative: Knows about position, will only raise UTG with AA-QQ or slick. This is the worst case scenario for our hero. Fortunately, it's also the least common player type at 1/2 online.

3. Knowledgeable and aggressive: Will raise with a much wider assortment of hands UTG, but has much more sense to it than the clueless guy. Will raise PP's down to 99, suited aces down to AT, as well as slick, KQs and maybe AQ.

All told, there are a significant number of hands UTG could have that aren't AA-QQ. The beauty of this play is that it would likely scare the bujeezus out of JJ-77, and is a favorite over all of those unpaired hands.

Again, this is not a default play, and mucking is certainly reasonable, but as a variation, I like the 3-bet.

[Bubmack]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If there's a good chance of folding the blinds and a good chance that the raiser has a non-pair (e.g. slick), there's absolutely nothing wrong with this 3-bet preflop. Good variation play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You definately want it heads up or against 5-6 players. So getting the blinds out is a good idea. But an even better idea is folding the hand and leaving behind your expected small favorite to save the times you are a big dog.

Bubs

[Bubmack]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
] I figured i would have him beat the 2/3rd of the time he didnt flop something (assumming he did not have a pocker pair). I also assummed i would win a lot when he did flop something but i get my set. [/quote

you must be assuming he will fold to a single flop bet. Or you are not nearly a 2/3rd favorite over anything that doesn't have a 2,3 or 4.

What happens when the board flops rags and he plays back at you? You are in a tough situation and will never know where you stand unless you hit your set on the flop. But at least the raise was better than a flat call!

Bubs

[Homer]

Preflop - Fold, unless your opponent raises really loose from UTG, yet is willing to fold right away when he misses the flop. I've never met an opponent who played like this, so I've never reraised 44 from the button against an UTG raisor.

Flop - I would bet this every time. By checking, you are effectively giving up on the hand. Your opponent will bet the turn and you can't call with fourth pair. Bet and hope he folds his KQ, QJ, KJ, QQ, JJ, 99, etc. You wrote "Damn", which makes me think you were playing this hand only for its set value, which you shouldn't have been in this case. If that was your reason your play the hand you should fold preflop. If you aren't willing to bet this flop, you MUST fold preflop.

Turn - I would bet, given that your opponent has now checked twice. I'm guessing he has something like 99 or a gutshot broadway draw, and will fold to your turn bet.

River - Given the way you played it to this point, I think calling is correct.

"I figured if a ragged board came up i would be able to take it but then the Ace scared me."

The Ace shouldn't scare you. You should bet and hope it scares your opponent. As I said, if you are going to play this hand (which I wouldn't), you have to be on the offensive or you dump preflop.

-- Homer