Trapper
04-06-2003, 11:34 AM
I recently posted some of my thoughts in the small stakes forum under "preflop raising debate" in which I argued that it is better to pump or dump hands preflop when opening in early and early middle positions. The class of hands i am concerned here with are big suited aces all the way down to A8s and big suited kings down to K9s. I know that conventional wisdom says that these hands are supposed to hold up well in pumped pots, but am not sure about how well they hold up multi-way. I know the conventional wisdom is that they do well multi-way but it seems that with every extra player in to see the flop that their value would actually go down if you believe (which i do) the computer simulations results of "Player's Guide": A new guide to starting hands. Their results show that big suited connectors hold up better than unsuited one's multi-way but that their value goes down too with every extra player in. I believe it's important to differentiate between a pumped pot with few players and a pumped pot with many players. If you believe their results then you would believe that only big pocket pairs 88 thru AA hold up well in pots that are both pumped and multi-way. The big suiteds do best in pumped short pots which is why i think it would be better to go short with them and raise then to limp and go long. The big offsuit connectors do best heads-up and not multi-way (no controversy there). This sounds very reasonable and logical to me. If you were to believe this paradigm then wouldn't you want to utilize a very aggressive strategy in early postion and early middle postitions preflop that would demand raising in order to 1) clear out hands behind you (KJo, AJo, KQo, AQ) that could dominate (out-kick) your KTs, K9s, AT, A9s). Most reasonable players will fold these offsuits to a raise). Aren't you supposed to act strong when your weak and act weak when your strong in poker? I would think the same would apply pre-flop.
And by the way, this is a position game as well. If you limp with your KTs and allow six limpers to get position on you are you really happy with that? Now you've got postion on the two blinds, but your positon is worse (relatively speaking) then if you had open raised or raised after one or two limpers and successfully cleared out the field behind you). When you think of it like this it seems ludicrous to limp with these!
The other part of my debate is how to play these hands in late position after many limpers (lets say 6 or more for discussion purposes). Let's say i'm on the button with AJs and six limp to me. Is it really wise to raise in this spot? Assuming one of the blinds stays in my raise will create 16 small bets in the pot on the flop. The flop comes jack high and everyone "checks to the raisor." I come out and bet and everyone gets the righ price to call with marginal draws. On the other hand if i don't raise i accomplish two things: 1) i increase the likelihood of the player with AT on my right to bet into me which allows me to raise and cause the players behind me to now make a mistake by calling two bets for their marginal draws. and 2) if i place the opening bet on the flop there is only 8 bets in the pot as opposed to 16 which still gives them the wrong price to draw.
When I get a big suited connector i'm not thinking about making a flush or broadway. I'm thinking top pair and i deal with my kicker accordingly. I know this strategy is the reverse of conventional wisdom, but to me it makes more since (especially in loose passive no fold-em holdem games where it often becomes necessary to use un-conventional tactics). How do you proffessionals play at the middle and big limits? Do you think i'm completely crazy? Don't just tell me that i'm wrong because what i'm saying is "radical". If you disagree with me then explain your reasoning like i explained mine. I would like to know what you think.
And by the way, this is a position game as well. If you limp with your KTs and allow six limpers to get position on you are you really happy with that? Now you've got postion on the two blinds, but your positon is worse (relatively speaking) then if you had open raised or raised after one or two limpers and successfully cleared out the field behind you). When you think of it like this it seems ludicrous to limp with these!
The other part of my debate is how to play these hands in late position after many limpers (lets say 6 or more for discussion purposes). Let's say i'm on the button with AJs and six limp to me. Is it really wise to raise in this spot? Assuming one of the blinds stays in my raise will create 16 small bets in the pot on the flop. The flop comes jack high and everyone "checks to the raisor." I come out and bet and everyone gets the righ price to call with marginal draws. On the other hand if i don't raise i accomplish two things: 1) i increase the likelihood of the player with AT on my right to bet into me which allows me to raise and cause the players behind me to now make a mistake by calling two bets for their marginal draws. and 2) if i place the opening bet on the flop there is only 8 bets in the pot as opposed to 16 which still gives them the wrong price to draw.
When I get a big suited connector i'm not thinking about making a flush or broadway. I'm thinking top pair and i deal with my kicker accordingly. I know this strategy is the reverse of conventional wisdom, but to me it makes more since (especially in loose passive no fold-em holdem games where it often becomes necessary to use un-conventional tactics). How do you proffessionals play at the middle and big limits? Do you think i'm completely crazy? Don't just tell me that i'm wrong because what i'm saying is "radical". If you disagree with me then explain your reasoning like i explained mine. I would like to know what you think.