AA 3rd hand into tournament. How would YOU play it?

[MrMoo]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1575)
CO (t3000)
Button (t1470)
SB (t1425)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1530)
UTG+1 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t50</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds.

Flop: (t177.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, CO folds, SB calls t150.

Turn: (t477.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t250</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t750</font>, SB calls t500.

River: (t1977.50) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB is all-in [475] , Hero ???

How would you play it and why?

[zoobird]

My thinking on this may be a bit skewed because I'm a relatively new player and have been playing in freeroll tournaments only so far, but here's my thinking at each stage:

Pre-flop: With pocket aces I'm usually just calling this early in the tournament. Lots of fish haven't been eliminated, and slowplaying seems to work very well. I'm willing to risk someone getting lucky with a drawing hand in return for the chance of taking someone's whole stack.

Flop: I'm worried about those 2 6's. Someone could easily have 76, 65, A6 or even K6 (in the freerolls anyway). The only hands that you have beat that I think would make sense for him are something like AQ, KQ, QJ or QT (from a loose player - possible since you probably have no reads yet).

Turn: Not sure I can read much into his bet since it could just be a probe bet, but his call makes me think its even more likely he's got 3 6's...or even made a full house with the 5.

River: Another card that could have made a full house for him. I've got to think his most likely holdings are AQ, 76, or 65. That said, I think you're committed to the pot and need to call.

[sekrah]

I call where you are at here.. A-Q, K-Q very likely and you'll probably see it more often than the flush draw or a 6.

Only thing I'd do differently is probably bet slightly more, 175-200 on the flop, then push all in on the turn after his raise.. If he has a 6 or flopped a set, so be it, but he'll have A-Q or K-Q here more often than not.

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking on this may be a bit skewed because I'm a relatively new player and have been playing in freeroll tournaments only so far, but here's my thinking at each stage:

Pre-flop: With pocket aces I'm usually just calling this early in the tournament. Lots of fish haven't been eliminated, and slowplaying seems to work very well. I'm willing to risk someone getting lucky with a drawing hand in return for the chance of taking someone's whole stack.

Flop: I'm worried about those 2 6's. Someone could easily have 76, 65, A6 or even K6 (in the freerolls anyway). The only hands that you have beat that I think would make sense for him are something like AQ, KQ, QJ or QT (from a loose player - possible since you probably have no reads yet).

Turn: Not sure I can read much into his bet since it could just be a probe bet, but his call makes me think its even more likely he's got 3 6's...or even made a full house with the 5.

River: Another card that could have made a full house for him. I've got to think his most likely holdings are AQ, 76, or 65. That said, I think you're committed to the pot and need to call.

[/ QUOTE ]


Very bad advice here.. OP, do not let it enter your mind.

[zoobird]

Hey - I gave fair warning in my first sentence. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you could comment on which specific parts are especially bad, I'd definitely appreciate the chance to improve my game.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey - I gave fair warning in my first sentence. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you could comment on which specific parts are especially bad, I'd definitely appreciate the chance to improve my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not limp Aces, especially during the first few levels of a tournament.

[sekrah]

Only limp in with Aces when you are UTG at a table filled with LAG's (Loose-Aggressive) who've been raising alot of pots preflop.

Raising is exactly the reason you eliminate hands like 5-6, 6-7, 6-8, 6-anything.


They called 3.5 BB preflop. I might have raise a little more than 50 actually.. In the early stages people are more likely to make liberal calls.. and already with one limper, I probably make it 75 to go (5 BB).

I wouldn't worry about those sixes.. Your opponent calling that bet on the flop certaintly tells me he has something.. The likely hood of it being a 6 is far lower than the Queen. A-Q, K-Q, Q-J are very realistic possibilities this early in a tournament that a weak or loose player might be holding. You can't run scared everytime the board pairs or you won't get far.

The fact that he led out on the turn, tells me that he doesn't have a 6 or a set. The bet on the turn tells me he has the queen.

The only other possibility, if it's a very loose player, who likes to steal pots, is two random hearts, maybe A-K or A-J hearts and he thinks you're bluffing, or he's setting up a bluff. If he's still holding a 6 or a set of queens (very unlikely) or if he made a set of 5s on the turn, its very unlikely he's betting into you here. He would more than likely check raise or check-call, then bet the river.


This is why you MUST, push all in on the turn. The simple 500 raise won't get it done. Push him all in and make him call of his stack with either the heart draw, or the A-Q, K-Q, Q-J.

Don't let him get to the river without being all in. Him slowplaying Kings or something is also another possibility at this level.

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking on this may be a bit skewed because I'm a relatively new player and have been playing in freeroll tournaments only so far, but here's my thinking at each stage:

Pre-flop: With pocket aces I'm usually just calling this early in the tournament. Lots of fish haven't been eliminated, and slowplaying seems to work very well. I'm willing to risk someone getting lucky with a drawing hand in return for the chance of taking someone's whole stack.

Your reasoning is completely off. Early in tournaments you have tons of morons who will call with much less holdings, and be way more likely to chase draws. Slowplaying - bad.

Flop: I'm worried about those 2 6's. Someone could easily have 76, 65, A6 or even K6 (in the freerolls anyway). The only hands that you have beat that I think would make sense for him are something like AQ, KQ, QJ or QT (from a loose player - possible since you probably have no reads yet).

Turn: Not sure I can read much into his bet since it could just be a probe bet, but his call makes me think its even more likely he's got 3 6's...or even made a full house with the 5.

The range your putting him on is way to big.



River: Another card that could have made a full house for him. I've got to think his most likely holdings are AQ, 76, or 65. That said, I think you're committed to the pot and need to call.

He is pot committed. And I bet he wins the pot here about 60% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[zoobird]

For arguments sake, let's say the previous two hands were an all-in showdown where the winner pushed with Q6 preflop, and another preflop push that nobody called from another player...so we know we have one maniac and possibly a 2nd one. Assuming both of those players are yet to act, it would still be bad idea to limp w/aces in this situation?

[ZBTHorton]

If they called all-ins or pushed with Q6..that's even more reason to raise. Do you see why?

[zoobird]

But won't some of those same morons go all in with relatively garbage against my aces? Or call my raise with 76s?

[zoobird]

I see why that would be reason to raise with KK or QQ, but not with AA. Granted, the more players who are in the pot, the more chance the flop will hit somebody, but I would think I'm compensated for that by the fact that if the flop has any high cards in it somebody with top pair may now be willing go all-in against my aces.

[tshak]

By not raising AA you're passing up a chance to get your chips in with a huge amount of equity. You've got opponents paying dearly as huge dogs (see also: The Fundamental Therom of Poker). If you limp you run the risk of letting the blinds and loose limpers break you with some freak two pair. Are you really capable of folding AA on a board that reads 952? Because the BB played 95o for free and has you hammered. I highly suggest you read Super/System's section on playing AA and KK. I jam AA up 4-5x each time when I open, and I'll overbet the pot if I have limpers before me and half the table ahead of me. What I'm looking for it to take the pot right there, uncontested, or for someone to put me on a steal and play back at me. I do however limp UTG and UTG+1 ~10% of the time. And when I do I play them slow unimproved. It's only a pair afterall.

[sekrah]

You must make them pay to play 7-6.. I'm not a maniac, but I'll limp in with 7-6 all day!! I won't call a 5 BB bet with 7-6.

[runout_mick]

What was the buy in to this tourney? I play mostly low buy in tourneys and find that if I get a monster in EP in the first few hands, an open push preflop gets paid. People just assume you're a moron, and who'd play KK that way?

People haven't had time to judge your betting patterns, so whether you have a monster or not they won't be able to judge your strength. Plus if you are in EP with AA and open raise to a stupid amount (10 BB or more) and it does show down, people remember this and categorize you as an inexperienced player.

Moderation, in my opinion, doesn't pay early in a deep stack low buy in tourney.

[runout_mick]

[ QUOTE ]
But won't some of those same morons go all in with relatively garbage against my aces? Or call my raise with 76s?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally, yes.

[MrMoo]

It was the 200+15 350K Guaranteed.

While I agree that in lower buyin tournament you get a lot of people who may be willing to call I don't think thats generally the best play. I wanted someones entire stack on this hand. I personally feel I play a big stack well. I wanted to double up, slowly build my stack and then start hammering people once we hit the 25/50 level. To get someone's entire stack, I felt needed someone to hit a decent hand.

Also, as odd as it may sound, I don't want my opponents to think I'm inexperienced. I'd prefer they know I'm a thinking player and make their decisions based upon that. When I come over the top and push someone all in, I want them to think I have the nuts. Not that I'm an idiot pushing with Q10o because there are pretty pictures on the cards.

[MrMoo]

[ QUOTE ]

Only limp in with Aces when you are UTG at a table filled with LAG's (Loose-Aggressive) who've been raising alot of pots preflop.

Raising is exactly the reason you eliminate hands like 5-6, 6-7, 6-8, 6-anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed

[ QUOTE ]
They called 3.5 BB preflop. I might have raise a little more than 50 actually.. In the early stages people are more likely to make liberal calls.. and already with one limper, I probably make it 75 to go (5 BB).

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree again. Because so many people like to limp early in the tournaments my usual bet is about 5x BB here. Considering I've already got one limper, I'm likely to make it even more. I think that was probably my biggest mistake on the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't worry about those sixes.. Your opponent calling that bet on the flop certaintly tells me he has something.. The likely hood of it being a 6 is far lower than the Queen. A-Q, K-Q, Q-J are very realistic possibilities this early in a tournament that a weak or loose player might be holding. You can't run scared everytime the board pairs or you won't get far.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree again. I really doubt he has the 6 here. I think AQ is less likely as I hold two aces but still a possability. QJ is also possible but without any reads I have to assume that this is a logical player who would be smart enough to fold that. If he has QQ I'm screwed regardless and I'm going broke so I'm not worried about that. All the above are possabilities but I think the most likely hand here is KQ.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he led out on the turn, tells me that he doesn't have a 6 or a set. The bet on the turn tells me he has the queen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree yet again. I think he wanted to find out where he was. At this point, I know I have the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
The only other possibility, if it's a very loose player, who likes to steal pots, is two random hearts, maybe A-K or A-J hearts and he thinks you're bluffing, or he's setting up a bluff. If he's still holding a 6 or a set of queens (very unlikely) or if he made a set of 5s on the turn, its very unlikely he's betting into you here. He would more than likely check raise or check-call, then bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely but at this point without any reads I'd say he's got KQ the majority of the time. Also possible would be AQ, QJ, Q10, KK, AA, JJ, and maybe even 1010. Also he could still be chasing a club draw.


[ QUOTE ]
This is why you MUST, push all in on the turn. The simple 500 raise won't get it done. Push him all in and make him call of his stack with either the heart draw, or the A-Q, K-Q, Q-J.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the only part I disagree. And I'm not even sure I'm right here. This is in my opinion the interesting part of the hand. I don't like a push. I think my bet size is good enough to drag Qx along but enough to chase out the flush draws. Granted I could likely take it down with a push here but I think I have a better chance of getting his entire stack with this bet. I think (maybe wrongly) that in the long run I'll milk more from players in situations like these if I avoid pushing and simply milk their stack a little at a time.

P.S. Forgot to add, VERY impressive hand analysis.