Betting aggressively on average hands, good idea? [Archive]

View Full Version : Betting aggressively on average hands, good idea?

08-23-2005, 10:42 AM

Here's an example of the sort of thing I see at the .50/1.00 rooms:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

River: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Hero has Ac 6c (one pair, aces).
Button has Kc Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Button wins 10 BB.

There are two possibilities with a hand like mine after the flop. One, just give up and fold to any betting, I missed my flush. The 2nd is to bet and see if anyone else has me beat.

The problem with this, at the partypoker .50/1.00 tables at least, is that half the players at these tables will just check and call to the river regardless of what they have. Maybe they have nothing at all and are hoping to improve, maybe they have a small pair and keep calling hoping to hit a set, or maybe they flopped a strong hand but don't like to bet.

So yeah, betting aggressively will knock a bunch of players out of the pot, by the river many of them will be gone, but the ones remaining will likely be the ones with the best hands. So, is betting on middle pair or top pair with a weak kicker really +EV when faced with tables where half the opponents won't raise or fold?

davelin

08-23-2005, 10:47 AM

Don't open-limp with this hand. These players make you money in the long-run.

Cheshire

08-23-2005, 10:57 AM

Other then the preflop limp, I probably would have folded. I think you played it fine. When they call they could very easily have KQ, KJ, Q10 ect. If you are going to play A-6s and an ace comes with no one showing aggression you cant just check it through, giving everyone chances to draw out for free. It sucks that the other player flopped two pair, but if it makes you feel better he/she played it horribly.
Tables where no one bets with out the nuts and will call with any part of the flop are really annoying because you never know if you are ahead or behind. I usually just leave them and try and find a table with a couple of very aggressive players and some people who call too much.

@bsolute_luck

08-23-2005, 10:58 AM

just work on your reads that's all. like davelin said, you'll win against them in the long run.

i'd like to ammend what davelin said: don't open limp with this hand from this position. the danger with this hand is what you just experienced. as you continue to play and learn you'll figure out when to check/fold, bet out, check/call, and check/raise postflop with it.

edit: i'll leave what i originally put in, but at a loose/passive table, MP1 is still EP and i limp this too.

08-23-2005, 11:10 AM

So, why shouldn't I open limp from this position with this hand?

bozlax

08-23-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd like to ammend what davelin said: don't open limp with this hand from this position. the danger with this hand is what you just experienced. as you continue to play and learn you'll figure out when to check/fold, bet out, check/call, and check/raise postflop with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I'd like to amend (or perhaps clarify) what you said. Don't open-limp this from anywhere. If you have it in EP or EMP with fewer than 2 limpers or a raise ahead of you, you should fold it. If it's folded to you in LMP or LP you should be raising it, against most .5/1 competition. Yeah?

davelin

08-23-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd like to ammend what davelin said: don't open limp with this hand from this position. the danger with this hand is what you just experienced. as you continue to play and learn you'll figure out when to check/fold, bet out, check/call, and check/raise postflop with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I'd like to amend (or perhaps clarify) what you said. Don't open-limp this from anywhere. If you have it in EP or EMP with fewer than 2 limpers or a raise ahead of you, you should fold it. If it's folded to you in LMP or LP you should be raising it, against most .5/1 competition. Yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant to clarify position here. In EP I think it's fine to open-limp with this hand.

@bsolute_luck

08-23-2005, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So, why shouldn't I open limp from this position with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

i edited my first post thinking MP1 was later in the hand, but at a loose/passive table i limp this EP all the time. davelin is a self-admitted tightie so maybe that's why he doesn't /images/graemlins/grin.gif

if it was later in position, it is a raise/fold situation. as i said earlier, you've just seen why it is dangerous.

this hand IMO: very coordinated, small pot, you have only 2 redraws if behind to another single paired A (like A3 or something), and even if your hand could be best, there are a ton of redraws and your position sux. check/fold in this situation.

davelin

08-23-2005, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, why shouldn't I open limp from this position with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

i edited my first post thinking MP1 was later in the hand, but at a loose/passive table i limp this EP all the time. davelin is a self-admitted tightie so maybe that's why he doesn't /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I meant to clarify in this position. I open limp with Axs all the time in EP.

08-23-2005, 11:32 AM

Thanks for the responses. I know I need to look more into my preflop play, at this point I just follow SSHE's preflop charts, the chart for loose tables pretty much.

Marquis

08-23-2005, 11:38 AM

bozlax

08-23-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses. I know I need to look more into my preflop play, at this point I just follow SSHE's preflop charts, the chart for loose tables pretty much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Start concentrating on WHY you're making a particular play, preflop. I find SSH's three measures of starting-hand strenght very helpful: suitedness, connectedness and high-card strength. A6s has suitedness, and one-card high-card strength. You want 2 out of 3 before you start playing hands, until you get more comfortable with post-flop play.

deception5

08-23-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't open-limp with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't mind the open limp here, with a poster and the blinds coming along you aren't getting this shorthanded very often and will likely be out of position so I like to limp to encourage limpers behind.

Fryguy

08-23-2005, 01:05 PM

AXs I'll open-limp from EP if I'm at the correct type of table (high vpip). If the table is tight and you can't be sure that 3-4 will follow behind you, it's probably worth a fold. Playing a no-kicker ace in early position is hard.

I'll split between open-raising and open-limping this from CO and button.

I'll also CC it if 3 people have CC in front of me

cfjr2

08-23-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

River: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Hero has Ac 6c (one pair, aces).
Button has Kc Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Button wins 10 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
button saved you some bets.
My play as button:
PF Being on the button I would have raised putting all the limpers in for another SB.

Flop - debatable but I would have smooth called the flop or bet if checked to me (possibly check through to make it look like I missed)

turn - raise any bet to me (attempt to look like I've turned a flush draw)

river - call (possible str8 stayed in) / bet if checked to me

edit: my point is that button's bad play cost you some $ but could have cost you more if any of the above plays kept you in for more bets. So his play was -EV for him (could have won more) but +EV for you. Be happy!

aces_dad

08-23-2005, 01:53 PM

I think this is the point OP needs to see about this hand.

Betting into 6 people on the flop and four on the turn with TP NK, specially when TP is an A, is what hurt you on this hand. The poster helps make this pf limp an easier decision as you're pretty likely to get multiway action on your suited A.

08-23-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the point OP needs to see about this hand.

Betting into 6 people on the flop and four on the turn with TP NK, specially when TP is an A, is what hurt you on this hand. The poster helps make this pf limp an easier decision as you're pretty likely to get multiway action on your suited A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg J

08-23-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll split between open-raising and open-limping this from CO and button.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a mistake. You should not open limp this, or any other hand from LP. If you can't find a raise, fold.

detruncate

08-23-2005, 03:18 PM

You didn't play this hand out in a vacuum. People can't respond properly without reads.

I don't mind the pf limp with a poster + loose/passive players behind you. MP1, though, is nearing raise or fold territory at an average table (raise being the worse option from MP1 in most cases).

Betting the flop isn't that bad here. AK and AQ are usually raised PF, AJ is often raised pf, AT is sometimes raised pf. There's a good chance that you're in the lead, and have outs vs non-aces-up 2-pairs. You'll be rescued by a split quite often if someone is holding A7 - A9 -- this is also sort of bad news, though... the board is draw heavy and when you're ahead vs another A you will frequently split at best. You have to be cautious with this hand, but it's probably worth continuing.

I bet when checked to. Checking usually isn't going to do much to help protect our hand. We can re-evaluate if the action gets heavy. Otherwise, I just see who calls and how the turn comes down.

The turn is a brick. We lost a few opponents. We can fold to aggression vs anyone other than a LAG (and even then sometimes depending on our read). We still have a decent chance of having the best hand with TP despite the calls. We don't want to give a free card. I bet.

The river is a brick. I bet if one or both of my opponents are loose/passive, which is most of the time. I expect to lose sometimes, but we should be showing this hand down for 1 bet in this pot, and we give too much advantage to our opponents when we check -- unless they're a 'bet when checked to' type, they'll usually call with more hands than they bet (and most of the hands they bet will beat us).

Yes, it's often profitable to bet TPWK all the way, and for exactly the argument you made against it. People will call with a small pair, middle pair, bottom pair, a strong draw, a weak draw, overcards, undercards... and they tend to play too passively, meaning that they usually let you off too easily when you're behind. Good upside, unterrible downside.

There's no one way to play these hands. It depends on the flop & table textures and the pot size. Sometimes it's a check/fold. Sometimes it's a c/r. Sometimes it's a bet. Likewise, we might well have decided to give up on the turn if we had lots of company and the board got scarier. All you can do is put your head down and play poker.