Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Since we're now releasing some no limit books, and this includes the two Harrgington books already out, the Sklansky/Miller book that's being written, and the next two Harrington books that are due out next year, I've started to play some no limit hold 'em to get a better feel for the game. Now while I'm obviously not a live one, I'm not an expert either, so as (and if) I continue to play, I'll try to post some hands that I think are interesting and instructive to me. Here's the first one.

I was playing in a $5-$10 blind game, had approximately $2,000, and was dealt the T/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif in a late position. It was passed to me and I made it $30 to go. The Player on my left called and the big blind called.

The flop came T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif giving me top set. It was checked to me and I bet $100. The player on my left folded, but the big blind called my bet and then raised an additional $600.

I felt that he was raising enough hoping to get me to fold. So I put him on either a small flush or an overpair with a diamond. I decided to just call and see what the turn would bring. The pot is now approximately $1,500 and I have about $1,300 left.

Fourth street was the 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. My opponent bet another $600 and I then moved in. The pot is now $3,400 and he only has to call for $700.

The river was a J/images/graemlins/club.gif which gave my opponent higher trips. (As suspected he did hold the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.)

So even though I lost a pretty big pot, I did get my opponent to put all his money in with the worse hand. But what I'm wondering is would I have been better off to move all-in on the flop and try to get him to fold there. Notice that on the flop, based on a simulation I just ran, my opponent only has a 34 percent chance to win.

Best wishes,
mason

[KaneKungFu123]

i like calling, it gives him a chance to bluff the turn, but risks him getting a flush holding the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[psyduck]

I believe that this is totally fine. You are getting him to make a larger mistake to put in more chips on the turn than you are on the flop. His equity on the flop is something like 38% (assuming a flush draw and a couple overcards), but it is halved on the turn.

Well played I think.

[coltrane]

Mason,

you leave out some important info about villain, your reads, etc.....clearly you must've known something about a player that checkraises with a pair of jacks and a jack-high flush draw against you (I assume you were playing tight? - again no table image descriptions of yourself were given) who could be holding a higher pair and a higher draw......

so when he checkraises you on the flop, if you thought there was a good chance he didn't have a flush, you should've pushed all-in because the pot is big, you made your commitment decision, and you want him to make the mistake of folding on the flop (if you flipped your cards up, he's making a mistake by not calling).....

if he was the type of player to mostly have a flush in that spot, you should fold your set because you're not getting the odds (you're about 5.7 to 1 to improve on the turn and getting about 3.7 to 1 best-case-scenario implied odds) to draw......

now it sounds like you weren't quite sure where you were at on the flop.....in that case, flat calling is acceptable in plans of re-evaluating on the turn (either folding or moving in on the turn based on your read/the turn card)......the turn was a blank, so obviously something about your read told you this guy doesn't have a flush, so you moved it in....fine.....he had outs, he hit, c'est la vie......like you said, you got the money in with the best of it, you just didn't give him a chance to make as much of a mistake as you could have with a better read.....

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting him to make a larger mistake to put in more chips on the turn than you are on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


you also give him a free card in a large pot, a chance to bluff you off the best hand, and you DON'T give him the chance to make the mistake of folding on the flop (which he may very well do because he could easily put hero on a higher pair with a higher diamond)....

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is now approximately $1,500 and I have about $1,300 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it matters all that much given the stacks, but I think I prefer to just shove it in on the flop. You are probably a 2:1 dog or a 2:1 fave, and I think you are a fave more often. However, you are a huge fave over 44/66 and against hands like that a turn diamond can either cost you a lot in missed action or cause you to make a big mistake. And I hate letting a hand like semibluff AdK see the turn without putting in more. Some opponents will also follow through w/ black overpair on a turn diamond if they don't think you have one.

Of course, that's all counterbalanced somewhat by a guy following through for the rest of his stack on a blank turn with a hand that would have folded to a flop push. But, a bunch of those would have called on the flop anyway.

So, we're back to what I first said. I don't think it really matters all that much, but I prefer sticking it in on the flop for the reasons stated above.

[fimbulwinter]

put it in on the flop for sure.

fim

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Coltrane:

I had just been moved to this game (from the must move) and didn't have much to go on. The only clue I really had was the amount of his raise.

Best wishes,
Mason

[LuvDemNutz]

I put it in on the flop as well.

[GimmeDaWatch]

At 1st I was thinkig that waiting for the turn was better just based on flat equity vs the hand you were up against, as well as committing worse hands that you want to get allin against. However, Diablo makes a good point about smaller sets, as well as being potentially bluffed off the turn. Additionally, if you call the flop and fold to a diamond, you're also forfeiting an opportunity to see a potentially board pairing river. There is also the small chance that a pretty tight opponent may actually fold a small flush, assuming you aren't capable of moving in on a suited board without a bigger one. I also think he probably folds his jacks if you move in. Sure, he should call if he saw your cards due the large committing size of his raise, but theres too good a chance he's completely obliterated.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
There is also the small chance that a pretty tight opponent may actually fold a small flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Real small. Isn't villian getting almost 3:1 on this call?

Even the Grand Poobah does bad beat posts now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

P.S. Flop is an easy push given his hand range (AdX, KdX, overpair, lower set, made flush) IMO.

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is also the small chance that a pretty tight opponent may actually fold a small flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Real small. Isn't villian getting almost 3:1 on this call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, almost, but some players are quite averse to the idea of drawing dead. Like I said, though, its a small chance.

[-Skeme-]

That wasn't a one liner.

At least make a gimmick account called 'One Liner Police' if you're going to state the obvious.

[-Skeme-]

At least get your gimmick down before making posts. No more, this is a decent thread.

[bugstud]

I tihnk the line is good. I was playing a table over at the plo and was pretty annoyed with the players on the must-move table being loud and agruementative.

[octop]

He couldnt technically be drawing dead
I lost a hand like this where I flopped the flush with ak and got all in on the flop with queens as an OP
Turn queen river pairs fun stuff

[warlockjd]

Hi Mason,

Have you considered 2 or 3 tabling online? I think doing this with the 6max tables would get you the quickest feel for the game and the most hands to talk about in X period of time.

/admittedly prejudiced playing almost exclusively 6max online

ps I nearly always push this flop, mainly to keep from making a mistake on later streets. I hate getting priced out of my 10 outer on the turn, when he may be bluff/representing a diamond.

[BigEndian]

I'll add to the chorus that this is a straight-forward push on the flop when CRed. I also bet 150ish at this pot when it's checked to me given your deep stacks. This puts pressure on big draws to make a go at the pot now or go away. A bet of only 100 is rolling out the carpet for a big /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

- Jim

[anduril]

Don't forget that if you are ahead there are a bunch of action killers on the turn depending on his hand. If he had a small flush and a 4th diamond comes or the board pairs, he may not pay off a big bet. Getting it all-in on the flop will get more hands to come in that are way behind and might fold to a bad turn, and if he has a flush you have 7 and then 10 outs in a ginormous pot. Plus it also looks like you have AK with a diamond.

[turnipmonster]

the only reasons I can think of for not pushing the flop are allowing him to fold 44/66 (which he may not do anyways), and a diamond turn may net us a free card. both of these things seem to be of dubious value.

--turnipmonster

[bobbyi]

Is this in Vegas? Where are they getting PLO?

[ggbman]

I think given your read, your line is correct here. Obviously this depends on how confident you are in just mucking the turn if it's a diamond.

Basically, there are a lot of safe cards in which your opponent will have to follow through with a bet, allowing you to easily pot commit him with excellent equity in the pot.

Gabe

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this in Vegas? Where are they getting PLO?

[/ QUOTE ]

wynn spread a 5/10 plo game on friday and sunday

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
the only reasons I can think of for not pushing the flop are allowing him to fold 44/66 (which he may not do anyways), and a diamond turn may net us a free card. both of these things seem to be of dubious value.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

2800 in pot, 1300 to call. I think you rarely if ever lose 44/66 on the flop.

[creedofhubris]

I have no problem with calling the flop and folding to a diamond turn/opponent bet that prices you out of a fh draw. Very conservative play.

With no diamond, it's a push on the turn.

Pushing the flop can't be too wrong however.

[cero_z]

Hi Mason,

I think it's a clear re-raise on the flop, and you will sometimes just have to get it in as a 2:1 dog here. If HE had position, and you thought there was a good chance that he had a flush, then calling would be better. That way, you get the rare chance to make the sweet play of bluffing out a small flush on the turn if a diamond falls. With you in position, though, he's going to bet any turn, including a diamond, and then he'll be committed. So, since I don't think you can fold if a blank falls and he pushes, you might as well try to get it in now, when you'll be a smaller dog in the unlikely event that you're losing now.

I don't get how you narrowed his range to an overpair w/ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or a small made flush, though. How can he not have the bare A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? What about a set or 2 pair? When you said you thought he wanted you to fold, did you mean that you thought he saw his bet with JJ as a bluff? I'm pretty sure he thought he had the best hand.

It seems to me your read is too narrow, based on the action up to and including his raise to 600. He called a LP opener for 30 bucks (only 20 to him) with 2000 behind; most players can have any 2 halfway decent cards there. If he thinks you're tight, and thus puts you on a strong hand, then that's all the more reason to loosen up his pre-flop calling standards for a chance to bust you.

[ActionJeff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pot is now approximately $1,500 and I have about $1,300 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it matters all that much given the stacks, but I think I prefer to just shove it in on the flop. You are probably a 2:1 dog or a 2:1 fave, and I think you are a fave more often. However, you are a huge fave over 44/66 and against hands like that a turn diamond can either cost you a lot in missed action or cause you to make a big mistake. And I hate letting a hand like semibluff AdK see the turn without putting in more. Some opponents will also follow through w/ black overpair on a turn diamond if they don't think you have one.

Of course, that's all counterbalanced somewhat by a guy following through for the rest of his stack on a blank turn with a hand that would have folded to a flop push. But, a bunch of those would have called on the flop anyway.

So, we're back to what I first said. I don't think it really matters all that much, but I prefer sticking it in on the flop for the reasons stated above.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Also, an observant opponent would surely notice the unusual cold call in that situation - if this were for whatever reason a standard play in this (fairly rare) situation, you are going to lose a lot of credibility when you are making a big semibluff. Not a big consideration, but I like to occasionally make a big power play, and as a result I want my occasional big semi bluffs to be indistinguishable from my legitimate hands. Plus, I am pretty sure Diablo is right and you are making a better play just shoving it all in there anyway.