So I'm At The Pistol Range Saturday... [Archive]

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 01:35 AM

and I'm in the zone; some days your your motor memory takes over; once you are taught properly and have practiced a lot, your body knows how to shoot much better than your consciousness can direct.

So I'm drilling the black, shooting one of my .45's. The weird thing that happened was when I fired off my carry ammo at the end of the session- 3 8-round mags of 230 grain Remington Golden Sabers- I could see most of them flying downrange. This has never happened before. Granted they are big, shiny gold-colored and subsonic, but I havent ever repeatedly picked up a track of a flying bullet before. Im not a kid, and my vision isnt perfect.

This was SERIOUS feedback for practice. I was also using Shoot-N-See targets, so I was able to see the location of strikes when they happened.

Cool?

touchfaith

08-23-2005, 01:39 AM

http://blogs.ferazel.net/media/election04partymap.jpg

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 01:43 AM

That makes me happy all over again.

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 02:01 AM

Hey, I'm from a blue state and voted for the blue president, and I own two pistols. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

CZ40P in .40S&W
Springfield Armory XD9 Subcompact (9mm)

EDIT: And I drive a pickup truck, and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

Macdaddy Warsaw

08-23-2005, 02:05 AM

Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Voltron87

08-23-2005, 02:09 AM

you could see the bullets? are you sure you werent using a nerf gun?

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 02:12 AM

I dont mean discrete bullet shaped objects, but just a golden blur, almost like tracer. I assume that this was because the rounds are subsonic (about 900fps, thats not fast for a bullet), large (~.45 inch) and reflective gold color.

Voltron87

08-23-2005, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mean discrete bullet shaped objects, but just a golden blur, almost like tracer. I assume that this was because the rounds are subsonic (about 900fps, thats not fast for a bullet), large (~.45 inch) and reflective gold color.

[/ QUOTE ]

weird, what kind of suction cup did it have on the end? my gun only went up to 10fps, but i havent shot it since i was a little kid. all my bullets were glow in the dark.

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 02:23 AM

Move to a free state.

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 02:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It's holstered and unloaded. It's not going to animate and start blowing holes in the walls. As it is right now, it's a $500 paperweight, not much more dangerous than your keyboard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 02:49 AM

1. It absolutely is possible to see rounds moving downrange, although it is more common for it to happen at dusk and with a rifle than in an indoor pistol range.

2. Stop using those silly shoot & see stickies. If you're looking at your target, you're not focussed on your frontsight, which is where you should be looking.

YourFoxyGrandma

08-23-2005, 02:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm At The Pistol Range Saturday...

[/ QUOTE ]

I find myself saying this all the time.

Macdaddy Warsaw

08-23-2005, 02:53 AM

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 02:54 AM

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It's holstered and unloaded. It's not going to animate and start blowing holes in the walls. As it is right now, it's a $500 paperweight, not much more dangerous than your keyboard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing weird about keeping a gun in this condition is that (a) the gun is unloaded and thus worthless, and (b) it is not on your right hip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'll admit that it'd take a few seconds for it to get into a firing condition, but my roommate is pretty anti-gun. He's baffled by the fact that I even own guns. Apparently he thinks that he can fend off an attacker with his bare hands (his words), and defend the house with uhh...well I dunno what he has. A scary stick maybe? At any rate, he doesn't feel comfortable with a loaded gun in the place, even though I've demonstrated on plenty of occasions that a gun is perfectly safe while loaded, as long as the operator is careful. But, he doesn't listen. So, I keep my pistols unloaded.

As far as hip carry...I've been known to do that. Arizona is an open carry state. I generally won't wear my gun into random places during the day, but if I go somewhere after midnight or so, I generally will carry on my hip. I haven't been lately, but it's something I've done extensively before. You'd be surprised at how few weird looks you get. Most people don't even notice (or care).

Too bad I'm moving back to CA in January. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Macdaddy Warsaw

08-23-2005, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It's holstered and unloaded. It's not going to animate and start blowing holes in the walls. As it is right now, it's a $500 paperweight, not much more dangerous than your keyboard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing weird about keeping a gun in this condition is that (a) the gun is unloaded and thus worthless, and (b) it is not on your right hip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'll admit that it'd take a few seconds for it to get into a firing condition, but my roommate is pretty anti-gun. He's baffled by the fact that I even own guns. Apparently he thinks that he can fend off an attacker with his bare hands (his words), and defend the house with uhh...well I dunno what he has. A scary stick maybe? At any rate, he doesn't feel comfortable with a loaded gun in the place, even though I've demonstrated on plenty of occasions that a gun is perfectly safe while loaded, as long as the operator is careful. But, he doesn't listen. So, I keep my pistols unloaded.

As far as hip carry...I've been known to do that. Arizona is an open carry state. I generally won't wear my gun into random places during the day, but if I go somewhere after midnight or so, I generally will carry on my hip. I haven't been lately, but it's something I've done extensively before. You'd be surprised at how few weird looks you get. Most people don't even notice (or care).

Too bad I'm moving back to CA in January. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude...If I could carry a gun around...I'd so totally own a gun.

ethan

08-23-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It's holstered and unloaded. It's not going to animate and start blowing holes in the walls. As it is right now, it's a $500 paperweight, not much more dangerous than your keyboard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pro-gun and very very pro-gun-safe. At the very least I'd hope you have a trigger lock on it, but in your place I'd have it in a big metal box bolted to the floor/wall.

I currently own 0 guns, since when I want to go shooting I have my pick of 40-50 and the person who owns the guns is conveniently the person who owns the property where I go shoot them. I'm not worried that I'd do something stupid with it, but rather I don't want to risk even the slightest chance it'll be used by someone else (stolen or otherwise).

I learned gun safety from some very careful people, and I like their approach.

arod4276

08-23-2005, 05:21 AM

lmao.......2 funny

Dynasty

08-23-2005, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
http://blogs.ferazel.net/media/election04partymap.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you still hoping for recounts in Iowa and New Mexico?

08-23-2005, 08:04 AM

I used to have 2 guns until I got convicted of a felony.

jakethebake

08-23-2005, 08:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It absolutely is possible to see rounds moving downrange...

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Most good shooting instructors, and many experienced shooters can tell you where your rounds are going when you miss. This is not unusual at all.

newfant

08-23-2005, 08:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The weird thing that happened was when I fired off my carry ammo at the end of the session- 3 8-round mags of 230 grain Remington Golden Sabers- I could see most of them flying downrange.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean that a would-be attacker could see the bullets coming at him and jump out of the way?

renodoc

08-23-2005, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that a would-be attacker could see the bullets coming at him and jump out of the way?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are THE ONE Neo....

08-23-2005, 11:03 AM

Open carrying is asking for trouble. Concealed is much better because then would be attackers do not suspect it.

cmwck

08-23-2005, 11:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It's holstered and unloaded. It's not going to animate and start blowing holes in the walls. As it is right now, it's a $500 paperweight, not much more dangerous than your keyboard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing weird about keeping a gun in this condition is that (a) the gun is unloaded and thus worthless, and (b) it is not on your right hip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'll admit that it'd take a few seconds for it to get into a firing condition, but my roommate is pretty anti-gun. He's baffled by the fact that I even own guns. Apparently he thinks that he can fend off an attacker with his bare hands (his words), and defend the house with uhh...well I dunno what he has. A scary stick maybe? At any rate, he doesn't feel comfortable with a loaded gun in the place, even though I've demonstrated on plenty of occasions that a gun is perfectly safe while loaded, as long as the operator is careful. But, he doesn't listen. So, I keep my pistols unloaded.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

[/ QUOTE ]

This message has been brought to you by the idiots at HCI.

A loaded weapon on your person is by far the safest method for securing a pistol, while simultaneously having it available for self defense.

The only justification for locking up and/or unloading a self-defense firearm is the possibility of children getting unsupervised access to the weapon.

jakethebake

08-23-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But not by other people.

HopeydaFish

08-23-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
even though I've demonstrated on plenty of occasions that a gun is perfectly safe while loaded, as long as the operator is careful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone please post a link to the video of the cop accidentally shooting himself in front of a classroom full of kids? I can't find it...

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pro-gun and very very pro-gun-safe. At the very least I'd hope you have a trigger lock on it, but in your place I'd have it in a big metal box bolted to the floor/wall.

I learned gun safety from some very careful people, and I like their approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have also learned "gun safety" from Handgun Control Inc., evidently, since you have bought into the "trigger lock" canard.

Trigger locks on loaded firearms are MORE dangerous because removal/placement of the trigger lock increases the possibiity of a negligent discharge. Trigger locks on UNLOADED firearms are part of a liberal agenda designed to advance the notion that guns are "inherently dangerous" and therefore should be subject to legislation requiring them to be stored in an unloaded fashion.

If you want to understand gun safety, there are only four cardinal rules, laid down many years ago by Col. Jeff Cooper:

1. All guns are always loaded (so treat them as such)
2. Never point the muzzle at something you are unwilling to destroy
3. Finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.
4. Be sure of your target.

Some ideas are implicit in these rules, such as securing guns away from children (a corrolary to Rule #1).

Bottom line: gun safety is about the operator, not the equipment. Responsible gun ownership involves training. Take a class at Gunsite.

PITTM

08-23-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not weird until...

[ QUOTE ]
and I keep the 9mm sitting next to my computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

boy oh boy, if i played poker with a gun sitting next to my computer...next swing=everyone gets it...

rj

Macdaddy Warsaw

08-23-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to understand gun safety, there are only four cardinal rules, laid down many years ago by Col. Jeff Cooper:

1. All guns are always loaded (so treat them as such)
2. Never point the muzzle at something you are unwilling to destroy
3. Finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.
4. Be sure of your target.

[/ QUOTE ]

Colonel Cooper sounds like a badass. I like these rules.

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Colonel Cooper sounds like a badass. I like these rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeff Cooper invented the modern gunfighting technique used today by virtually every police agency in the world. Gunsite (http://www.gunsite.com/about.htm) started it all. Although some of the techniques have evolved away from Cooper's original teachings (e.g., modern isocoles vs. modified Weaver), most of the techniques, doctrine, and tactics for winning a shooting confrontation can be traced back to a handful of individuals like Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, Michael Harries, and others.

jakethebake

08-23-2005, 03:04 PM

Awesome book.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0873649737.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif

jakethebake

08-23-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff Cooper invented the modern gunfighting technique used today by virtually every police agency in the world. Gunsite (http://www.gunsite.com/about.htm) started it all. Although some of the techniques have evolved away from Cooper's original teachings (e.g., modern isocoles vs. modified Weaver), most of the techniques, doctrine, and tactics for winning a shooting confrontation can be traced back to a handful of individuals like Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, Michael Harries, and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea. When I learned at Quantico, the technique i learned was kinda unique back then (isocolese stance, push/pull vs. cup&saucer, two-finger trigger pull) but the instructor i had was always quoting cooper.

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It absolutely is possible to see rounds moving downrange, although it is more common for it to happen at dusk and with a rifle than in an indoor pistol range.

2. Stop using those silly shoot & see stickies. If you're looking at your target, you're not focussed on your frontsight, which is where you should be looking.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Have seen this, especially when its a .50BMG. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

2. I live on the front sight. I use Shoot-N-See as an instructional aid for round-to round feedback. On this occasion, I was just seeing EVERYTHING. In that vein:

2. (cont) When I was teaching one of my daughters to shoot, I was telling her to focus on the front sight since you can really only plane into focus. Her reply : "What do you mean? I have both sights and the target in focus right now"

Pwned.

Later she admitted that not all were in full focus, but hey. She now shoots rimfire silhouette. Oh, for young eyes...

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

[/ QUOTE ]

The implication is that the percentage is high. Google Dr John Lott for an exposition of this and other utter fabrications.

UseThePeenEnd

08-23-2005, 03:28 PM

I have never played poker without a firearm on my person.

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Open carrying is asking for trouble. Concealed is much better because then would be attackers do not suspect it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few precautions that you have to take when you open carry, but I disagree that it's "asking for trouble."

One of the things you have to get used to is keeping good situational awareness, especially to who's behind you. If I have a pistol on my hip, I'm mostly worried about someone coming up behind and trying a gun grab. So basically, I'm constantly aware of who's behind me and try to position my gun away from them.

It's just a simple precaution, and one I'm sure every uniformed police officer follows as well.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if an intruder comes into my house, I'm forced (at the very minimum) to pull my firearm out of a case, undo the trigger lock, load it, and then defend myself? You know how much time that takes?

I don't own a gun to go plinking with. I own a gun for defense. Keeping it locked up so that I don't get shot by it is about as asinine as locking up your phone so you don't accidentally call 911.

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Open carrying is asking for trouble. Concealed is much better because then would be attackers do not suspect it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few precautions that you have to take when you open carry, but I disagree that it's "asking for trouble."

One of the things you have to get used to is keeping good situational awareness, especially to who's behind you. If I have a pistol on my hip, I'm mostly worried about someone coming up behind and trying a gun grab. So basically, I'm constantly aware of who's behind me and try to position my gun away from them.

It's just a simple precaution, and one I'm sure every uniformed police officer follows as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you carry openly as you are permitted to do in places like Arizona, you should use a Level 3 retention rig like the Safariland SLS tactical. (Dont laugh, one of my friends does exactly this on our annual trips to Gunsite.)If you're going to carry in either an open-topped Kydex rig, or simple leather thumbsnap holster, you should keep it concealed.

Regardless, Im with the OP. The advantage of greater comfort afforded by open carry is offset entirely by the tactical disadvantages of open carry. Regardless of your situational awareness and familiarity with gun retention techniques, a determined predator will simply kill you first, if you happen to be picking up cigarettes at the 7-11 when he knocks it over.

Citizens should always carry concealed.

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I use Shoot-N-See as an instructional aid for round-to round feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a flaw in your training. If you are shooting this precisely, you are shooting too slowly. Being able to punch a cloverleaf group with a pistol is a useless skill. Your goal should be to increase speed at the expense of accuracy, provided that you can keep all of your rounds in a 6" circle at whatever distance you're engaging the target. The par time for a trained shooter is 2 rounds, center-of-mass, from concealment, on a man-sized target 7 yards away, in under 2 seconds. At greater distances, obviously you need to slow down your shots to make your hits. However in no instance should you be aspiring to hit "shoot-and-see" circles of a couple of inches in diameter. This is simply too much accuracy at the expense of speed.

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Open carrying is asking for trouble. Concealed is much better because then would be attackers do not suspect it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few precautions that you have to take when you open carry, but I disagree that it's "asking for trouble."

One of the things you have to get used to is keeping good situational awareness, especially to who's behind you. If I have a pistol on my hip, I'm mostly worried about someone coming up behind and trying a gun grab. So basically, I'm constantly aware of who's behind me and try to position my gun away from them.

It's just a simple precaution, and one I'm sure every uniformed police officer follows as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you carry openly as you are permitted to do in places like Arizona, you should use a Level 3 retention rig like the Safariland SLS tactical. (Dont laugh, one of my friends does exactly this on our annual trips to Gunsite.)If you're going to carry in either an open-topped Kydex rig, or simple leather thumbsnap holster, you should keep it concealed.

Regardless, Im with the OP. The advantage of greater comfort afforded by open carry is offset entirely by the tactical disadvantages of open carry. Regardless of your situational awareness and familiarity with gun retention techniques, a determined predator will simply kill you first, if you happen to be picking up cigarettes at the 7-11 when he knocks it over.

Citizens should always carry concealed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with you, which is why I haven't open carried in a long while. It's simply something I've done before, just not recently. Your argument about robbers simply killing you first is something that I was always concerned about. My post was more aimed at the idea that if you DO open carry, there's some precautions you should take.

If I had the time to get my CWP, I would though. I'm moving back to CA in January for an indefinite period of time, so getting an AZ permit just wouldn't really do much over the next 4 months.

Patrick del Poker Grande

08-23-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Open carrying is asking for trouble. Concealed is much better because then would be attackers do not suspect it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few precautions that you have to take when you open carry, but I disagree that it's "asking for trouble."

One of the things you have to get used to is keeping good situational awareness, especially to who's behind you. If I have a pistol on my hip, I'm mostly worried about someone coming up behind and trying a gun grab. So basically, I'm constantly aware of who's behind me and try to position my gun away from them.

It's just a simple precaution, and one I'm sure every uniformed police officer follows as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you carry openly as you are permitted to do in places like Arizona, you should use a Level 3 retention rig like the Safariland SLS tactical. (Dont laugh, one of my friends does exactly this on our annual trips to Gunsite.)If you're going to carry in either an open-topped Kydex rig, or simple leather thumbsnap holster, you should keep it concealed.

Regardless, Im with the OP. The advantage of greater comfort afforded by open carry is offset entirely by the tactical disadvantages of open carry. Regardless of your situational awareness and familiarity with gun retention techniques, a determined predator will simply kill you first, if you happen to be picking up cigarettes at the 7-11 when he knocks it over.

Citizens should always carry concealed.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know, I'm pro-gun and all, but what the [censored] are you guys doing that you need to be carrying a gun around?

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I had the time to get my CWP, I would though. I'm moving back to CA in January for an indefinite period of time, so getting an AZ permit just wouldn't really do much over the next 4 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should get the AZ permit anyway, since it will give you reciprocity in many states such as TX, FL, etc. I also understand that some Sheriffs Offices in CA will issue you a permit (Bakersfield, etc.), although of course the LA, Bay Area, etc jurisdictions will not.

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'm pro-gun and all, but what the [censored] are you guys doing that you need to be carrying a gun around?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not regularly carry a pistol these days as I live in NYC. However, I carry a folding knife.

08-23-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'm pro-gun and all, but what the [censored] are you guys doing that you need to be carrying a gun around?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not regularly carry a pistol these days as I live in NYC. However, I carry a folding knife.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is also illegal to carry in NYC as far as I know, unless it's used specifically for your job.

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 05:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Which is also illegal to carry in NYC as far as I know, unless it's used specifically for your job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. You are thinknig of the section in connection with open carry of knives.

New York City Law
Chap. 1 Public Safety 10-133

Historical Note

Formerly 436-5.1

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments.

A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using suck knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to
(1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor;
(2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law;
(3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner
(4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or
(5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or
(b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or
(c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or
(d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

E. Violation of this section shall be an offense punishable by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars or by imprisonment not exceeding fifteen days or by both such fine

johnc

08-23-2005, 05:50 PM

slamdunkpro

08-23-2005, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

True. But not by other people.

[/ QUOTE ]

99% of all “cleaning accidents” are undocumented (no note) suicides.

slamdunkpro

08-23-2005, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff Cooper invented the modern gunfighting technique used today by virtually every police agency in the world. Gunsite started it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. Cooper ripped off Bill Jordan and Bob Weaver.

slamdunkpro

08-23-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are shooting this precisely, you are shooting too slowly. Being able to punch a cloverleaf group with a pistol is a useless skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

You’re joking right? Sight alignment and trigger control is the foundation for accuracy. Speed comes with repetition. Speed without accuracy is a truly useless skill.

Sponger15SB

08-23-2005, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'm pro-gun and all, but what the [censored] are you guys doing that you need to be carrying a gun around?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was pretty much what I'm thinking. I really feel sorry for Das because his life is like this....

[ QUOTE ]
I'm mostly worried about someone coming up behind and trying a gun grab. So basically, I'm constantly aware of who's behind me and try to position my gun away from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

CORed

08-23-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

True. But not by other people.

[/ QUOTE ]

99% of all “cleaning accidents” are undocumented (no note) suicides.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could anyone know that for sure?

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You’re joking right? Sight alignment and trigger control is the foundation for accuracy. Speed comes with repetition. Speed without accuracy is a truly useless skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Accuracy reaches the point of diminishing returns when you can hit a six inch target at any distance. That means at contact distances you should be able to make a center-of-mass accelerated pair from the holster in under 1 second, while at 50 yards, you should be able to make the same hits in 6-7 seconds. The need for ultra-precision shooting (e.g., head shots) is extremely rare. It's worth having that skill in your toolbox, but speed is the paramount skill once your accuracy is reasonably good. Frankly, gunhandling skills in general are over-rated, and it is much more important to work on tactical decisionmaking under pressure through Simmunitions training.

Blarg

08-23-2005, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if an intruder comes into my house, I'm forced (at the very minimum) to pull my firearm out of a case, undo the trigger lock, load it, and then defend myself? You know how much time that takes?

I don't own a gun to go plinking with. I own a gun for defense. Keeping it locked up so that I don't get shot by it is about as asinine as locking up your phone so you don't accidentally call 911.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Getting advice from gun-phobics on how to care for guns is like getting advice from a virgin priest on cunnilingus.

Blarg

08-23-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which is also illegal to carry in NYC as far as I know, unless it's used specifically for your job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. You are thinknig of the section in connection with open carry of knives.

New York City Law
Chap. 1 Public Safety 10-133

Historical Note

Formerly 436-5.1

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments.

A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using suck knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to
(1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor;
(2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law;
(3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner
(4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or
(5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or
(b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or
(c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or
(d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

E. Violation of this section shall be an offense punishable by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars or by imprisonment not exceeding fifteen days or by both such fine

[/ QUOTE ]

This to me is the definition of freakiness. A knife is probably one of the most common tools to every society in history. The idea that I can't wear an ordinary pocket knife on my belt is just nuts. The idea that it's somehow better for society, or even a reasonable idea, that I carry it in my pocket where it's concealed instead of naturally on my belt is bizarre paranoia.

Blarg

08-23-2005, 09:09 PM

benfranklin

08-23-2005, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

99% of all “cleaning accidents” are undocumented (no note) suicides.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could anyone know that for sure?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been well documented.

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 09:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That was pretty much what I'm thinking. I really feel sorry for Das because his life is like this....

[ QUOTE ]
I'm mostly worried about someone coming up behind and trying a gun grab. So basically, I'm constantly aware of who's behind me and try to position my gun away from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it is a very real scenario that you should protect yourself against if you do open carry. I don't consider myself paranoid, but rather just cautious if I have a gun out in public.

I think of it the same way as when I moved into my new place, I defined clear lines of fire in case I had to actually use my weapon for home defense. I have a roommate down the hall, plus neighbors right on the other side of the wall (duplex). Paranoid sounding? Maybe to some. I call it smart.

Derek in NYC

08-23-2005, 10:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'm pro-gun and all, but what the [censored] are you guys doing that you need to be carrying a gun around?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was pretty much what I'm thinking. I really feel sorry for Das because his life is like this....

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

In this world, all human beings can be classified as wolves, sheep, or sheepdogs.

slamdunkpro

08-23-2005, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How could anyone know that for sure?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was an interesting statistic that I picked up in paramedic school of all places. We had some police detective come in when the class was discussing suicides and suicide attempts. He said that once they investigated the circumstances behind a “cleaning accident” they almost always found some kind of skeleton such as desperate finances, a big insurance payoff, infidelity, pending divorce, unsuccessful suicide attempts. His point was to treat all gun “accidents” as a crime scene if we were the first on the scene

The other factor in this is that anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of firearms, particularly if it’s their gun (they already know how to load it) is that the first step in cleaning any firearm is to open the action/cylinder/remove the magazine to gain access. Once you do those, a firearm can’t discharge.

slamdunkpro

08-23-2005, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Accuracy reaches the point of diminishing returns when you can hit a six inch target at any distance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so, if I practice to the point where I consistently shoot one ragged 3 shot hole at 5 yards in a practice situation, then with repetition over a reasonable time, I can learn to do it quickly. Shot groups increase exponentially under high stress. A ½ inch grouper’s shots might go to 6-8 inches at 3 yards in a real gunfight. A six inch grouper’s might go to 25 – 40 inches under the same circumstances.

[ QUOTE ]
That means at contact distances you should be able to make a center-of-mass accelerated pair from the holster in under 1 second

[/ QUOTE ]

No human I know of except maybe Cal Eldritch or Ernie Hill could react to a stimulus, draw from a concealed rig, and perform this exercise in under one second. The truth in handgun fights is that the guy who draws first, or already has their gun out wins 99% of the time.

If both parties go to cover, then accuracy skills come into big play.

One point that I will make regarding the OP is that you should not train to shoot one shot then check your placement unless you’re shooting competitive bull’s-eye slow fire. Shoot several shots, and then check your accuracy. Remember, you fight like you train.

DasLeben

08-23-2005, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In this world, all human beings can be classified as wolves, sheep, or sheepdogs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this quote. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

UseThePeenEnd

08-24-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a flaw in your training.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ease up, big fellow.

I teach kids shooting occasionally, beginning with rimfire rifle, then rimfire pistol, and Shoot-N-C makes it fun for them. Im not training them for IDPA. I shot some before they arrived, and after they were through I fired off my carry ammo at THEIR final target with the results reported in the OP.

[ QUOTE ]
The par time for a trained shooter is 2 rounds, center-of-mass, from concealment, on a man-sized target 7 yards away, in under 2 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm aware of the standard. I can do this with my Seecamp from 5 yards, and it does not have sights of any kind. With the Para I also manage to get by.

Sponger15SB

08-24-2005, 01:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'm pro-gun and all, but what the [censored] are you guys doing that you need to be carrying a gun around?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was pretty much what I'm thinking. I really feel sorry for Das because his life is like this....

[/ QUOTE ]

In this world, all human beings can be classified as normal, or completely paranoid crazies

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Sponger15SB

08-24-2005, 01:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well it is a very real scenario that you should protect yourself against if you do open carry.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with this

[ QUOTE ]
I don't consider myself paranoid, but rather just cautious if I have a gun out in public.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that you'd be more likely to get yourself killed open carrying, also, I find it hard to believe you actually need to carry a gun with you.

DasLeben

08-24-2005, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe you actually need to carry a gun with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get this argument a lot. My answer: I don't need a gun with me. If I'm walking down the street with my gun on my hip, it's not necessary whatsoever to have a gun at that particular time. However, I'm fully prepared if a situation ever comes up to where I actually do need my gun.

Does that answer your question?

EDIT: Maybe a better way to answer this is to give you a scenario. Two guys are coming at you with baseball bats and you have no way of running away. How is it you're going to defend yourself?

Sponger15SB

08-24-2005, 02:06 AM

I don't know how you could say these two things together

[ QUOTE ]
I don't need a gun with me. If I'm walking down the street with my gun on my hip, it's not necessary whatsoever to have a gun at that particular time.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a better way to answer this is to give you a scenario. Two guys are coming at you with baseball bats and you have no way of running away. How is it you're going to defend yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

UseThePeenEnd

08-24-2005, 02:08 AM

A sidearm is like a tuxedo.

The need for one is an extraordinary rarity, but when it comes, absolutely nothing else will do.

DasLeben

08-24-2005, 02:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you could say these two things together

[ QUOTE ]
I don't need a gun with me. If I'm walking down the street with my gun on my hip, it's not necessary whatsoever to have a gun at that particular time.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a better way to answer this is to give you a scenario. Two guys are coming at you with baseball bats and you have no way of running away. How is it you're going to defend yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, but perhaps I should have made myself more clear. I simply stated that you don't need a gun except in rare situations, one of which might be two guys coming at you with baseball bats.

I would like an answer to my question, however.

Sponger15SB

08-24-2005, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would like an answer to my question, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already know the answer.

But how about you answer this question (and then we can continue to ask stupid questions to each other till someone walks in my house and shoots me):

You're walking down this street and someone pulls a knife on you and demands for your wallet, you pull out a gun and shoot him and his friend walks up behind you and slits your throat. Now, don't you wish you had just given him your wallet instead of dying?

DasLeben

08-24-2005, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're walking down this street and someone pulls a knife on you and demands for your wallet, you pull out a gun and shoot him and his friend walks up behind you and slits your throat. Now, don't you wish you had just given him your wallet instead of dying?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said I'd shoot him. You're just assuming that's what I'd say. If given the option, I'd hand over my wallet, car keys, etc. any day of the week. Hell, I'd try to run too.

Where did you get this impression?

I'd like to add one little tidbit of information. The scenario I gave you is completely true, and happened to me personally. Back in highschool, I apparently pissed off the wrong people. As I was walking down the street, a pickup truck pulls up, two guys with baseball bats jump out and start running at me. I was lucky and had a place to run to, and did manage to get away unhurt. Now, how would that have gone down if I didn't have a way of escape? And no, they didn't want my wallet.

Blarg

08-24-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would like an answer to my question, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already know the answer.

But how about you answer this question (and then we can continue to ask stupid questions to each other till someone walks in my house and shoots me):

You're walking down this street and someone pulls a knife on you and demands for your wallet, you pull out a gun and shoot him and his friend walks up behind you and slits your throat. Now, don't you wish you had just given him your wallet instead of dying?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or try this: something unusual, like a ninja wiling to challenge a gun, doesn't happen.

Or, the guy robbing you kills you anyway.

Or, the guy never wanted to rob you much. He did want to kill you, though.

08-24-2005, 04:29 AM

Ah ok my mistake. But butterflies and switches are still illegal to own in NY, right?

08-24-2005, 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A sidearm is like a tuxedo.

The need for one is an extraordinary rarity, but when it comes, absolutely nothing else will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. That's why I always carry around a couple of handgrenades. When you really need them, you _really_ need them.

08-24-2005, 07:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: Maybe a better way to answer this is to give you a scenario. Two guys are coming at you with baseball bats and you have no way of running away. How is it you're going to defend yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the point of being prepared for upcoming danger. But; do you always, in your daily life use a hardhat to protect against falling objects? Do you refuse to drive in a car, because of the danger it entails?
Or is that less badass than carrying a gun, "just in case"?

Derek in NYC

08-24-2005, 10:04 AM

Correct.

jakethebake

08-24-2005, 10:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this world, all human beings can be classified as wolves, sheep, or sheepdogs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this quote. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Although I don't think it's true.

Derek in NYC

08-24-2005, 10:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That means at contact distances you should be able to make a center-of-mass accelerated pair from the holster in under 1 second

[/ QUOTE ]

No human I know of except maybe Cal Eldritch or Ernie Hill could react to a stimulus, draw from a concealed rig, and perform this exercise in under one second. The truth in handgun fights is that the guy who draws first, or already has their gun out wins 99% of the time.

If both parties go to cover, then accuracy skills come into big play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Below is the standard set by Chuck Taylor for the "speed rock" drill. (Taylor was the former operations manager at Gunsite under Cooper, and is the leading advocate of the speed rock technique) Perhaps our disconnect comes from the fact that these contact distance drills do not involve drawing from cover. The fact is, that if you are engaged at contact distance, you will need to employ defensive tactics to break contact, gain distance, and draw your sidearm.

"Stage One - Handgun
The first stage is shot with the handgun. Beginning with the Standard Drills of two shots each, the candidate faces a single Taylor Advanced Combat target. The first exercise is the Speed Rock close-quarters emergency technique: two shots, one second."

As to your comment about accuracy and the point of diminishing returns, let me be clear: At seven yards, I have the skills to dump magazine after magazine and cover the group with a 50 cent piece. I periodically practice extreme accuracy drills, and most instructors occasionally have you do something similar (like Jeff Gonzales' "dot torture" drill).

However, extreme accuracy drills should not comprise the main part of your training. In general, you should strive to shoot a six-inch, multi-shot group at the fastest cadence you are capable of. If your groups are tighter than six-inches, you should work on increasing your shot cadence, trigger reset, etc. This is a particularly difficult exercise when you are shooting non-standard responses (e.g., 4-5 shot dumps).

Derek in NYC

08-24-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shoot several shots, and then check your accuracy. Remember, you fight like you train.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but how much do you adhere to your own advice? Is every firing sequence preceeded by a drawstroke, or do you cheat and start with the pistol in hand? Is your firing sequence initiated in response to a stimulus like a timing beeper? Is your drawstroke done from concealment? Do you practice stepping left or right while drawing? Are you focussed on your front sight? Do you practice both the standard response (two to the body, one to the head) and a non-standard response (magazine dump)? Are you resetting your trigger correctly? After your shot string, do you stay on target for a second before dropping to the guard, breaking tunnel vision, and scanning left/right? Is your re-holstering move done only at the end of the exercise, and done for purely administrative purposes, or do you "auto-reholster"?

Gunhandling skills, while relatively easy to acquire, still involve relatively complex movements that must be done correctly. Working on accuracy at the expense of the other elements of the firing sequence is a big mistake, because you are not programming a realistic response. My own firing sequence is so automatic and fluid, that my mind is entirely freed to work on tactical decisionmaking. In Sims exercises, all of my mental attention is focussed on target indicators--in particular, the presence of a weapon; if I see one, everything else is automatic. Decisionmaking in a fluid environment under pressure is by far the most difficult aspect of tactical gunfighting. I can't tell you how many times I have shot a no-shoot scenario simply because the suspect made some furtive gestures in combination with disobeying verbal commands.

Derek in NYC

08-24-2005, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
is that less badass than carrying a gun, "just in case"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people who carry undoubtedly do so because they think it is "badass". They are morons.

Other people carry weapons, but do so with the understanding that the #1 option for personal security is a commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

That said, sometimes trouble finds you.

astroglide

08-24-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
de-escalation

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. but this thread belongs in politics at this point.

CORed

08-24-2005, 12:03 PM

I think it is very likely that this is true. However, my point is, without a note, you may have forensic or circumstantial evidence suggesting that the death was likely to have been suicide, but there is no way, without knowing what the dead person was actually thinking when the gun fired, to be completely certain whether the death was an accident or suicide.

Derek in NYC

08-24-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
The reason you keep your gun locked up is so someone doesn't shoot you with it. Anyone care to guess what percentage of gun owners get shot by their own weapon?

True. But not by other people.

[/ QUOTE ]

99% of all “cleaning accidents” are undocumented (no note) suicides.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could anyone know that for sure?

[/ QUOTE ]

"The rate of gun suicide is correlated with trends in the size of the gun or handgun stock, but the rate of total suicide is not, supporting a substitution argument--when guns are scarce, suicide attempters substitute other methods, with no effect on the total number who die." See Kleck G. Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. 1991. A JAMA article has suggested that the presence of a gun in the home increases the risk for adolescent suicide, however.

More broadly, the gun-in-the-home-increases-danger myth is one that has been broadly propogated by anti-gun forces. The genesis of this myth is a highly flawed 1986 study authored by an anti-gun medical researcher. Currently, the best empirical evidence from John Lott, Gary Kleck, and others, suggests that gun ownership by private citizens is positively correlated with reduced crime rates.

UseThePeenEnd

08-24-2005, 01:22 PM

There are prohibitions on switchblade knives here in NC also, but open carry of a sheath knife is legal and relatively common. All knives with blades >4 inches MUST be displayed openly here.

The NC legal wording on automatic knives, however, prohibits knives that have assisted opening using both a spring and a button or other triggering device. Therefore the Kershaw auto-openers, which have neither, are legal here.

UseThePeenEnd

08-24-2005, 01:31 PM

Their studies also found that early firearms training in firearms-owning households is correlated with a disproportionately low rate of criminal activity later.

As for all the stuff quoted for thirty years by the ant-rights folks: that 1968 crap is now utterly discredited, and the author has steadfastly refused to release his raw data now that his statistical methodology has been successfully challenged by Lott, Kleck et al.

UseThePeenEnd

08-24-2005, 02:01 PM

Realism of training...

OK, put two cars side by side and carry a shopping bag. Its dark in the parking deck and you have seen no one until you have your car door open and two guys...

Bet its +EV that nine-tenths of CIVILIAN defensive shootings take place in confined surroundings with physical contact at some point between the assailant and defender-
mooting esoteric debate on stances, sight picture, flashlight grip, etc.

The best location for practical training for civilian defensive shooting is probably an unlighted closet while you have one hand on the target (train self: hand high, pistol low because you WILL NOT hold the free hand fisted to your chest). By this reckoning 90% or so of your practice should be from improvised retention postions.

In a similar vein, in-home defensive shooting isnt about slicing the pie, illumination tactics,etc; its about knowing where your kids are.

Lets not get precious. 90% of folks who go heeled dont have my level of training, much less yours. A little practice helps, and a little realistic practice helps a lot. What most people do at the range is utterly unhelpful tactically, but useful in terms of gunhandling and mindset.

Derek in NYC

08-24-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(train self: hand high, pistol low because you WILL NOT hold the free hand fisted to your chest). By this reckoning 90% or so of your practice should be from improvised retention postions.

[/ QUOTE ]

A standard Weaver stance or two-handed compressed guard/CQB retention are probably the best for indoor tactical use. Position Sul is also okay for certain purposes, but it isn't a great CQB position.

As far as one-handed techniques go, obviously it is necessary to get your support hand ahead of your muzzle on occasion for tasks such as opening doors, picking up a child, etc. The clenched-fish-to-chest technique is a wounded-shooter technique, not a standard one hand technique. But I do agree that civilians need to learn to shoot with one hand only, because in real life situations, they may need their weak hand for something else. Jeff Gonzales teaches an excellent, one-day Strong Hand Only course that brings this home.

[ QUOTE ]
In a similar vein, in-home defensive shooting isnt about slicing the pie, illumination tactics,etc; its about knowing where your kids are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tactics is incredibly important, and I totally disagree that slicing the pie, learning to clear T-junctions/stairwells, opening doors, stealth movement, flashlight techniques, etc. are irrelevant. This stuff saves lives.

Even team movement & communications can be relevant for civilians. I know a husband/wife team that regularly practices fast clearing their home. No kidding, between their hand signals, buttonhook/cross room entries, hi/low cuts, etc. they move like an SRT element.

[ QUOTE ]
What most people do at the range is utterly unhelpful tactically, but useful in terms of gunhandling and mindset.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mechanical square range practice is fine, but it is not enough. The best way to work on gunhandling skills is to take a course at Gunsite or some similar school, and the best way to work on mindset is to hunt deer or other large game, and to spend some serious time thinking about whether you are prepared to drop the hammer on a human being.