10+1 hand. Horrible?

NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:15074131 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, August 22, 20:09:50 EDT 2005
Table Table 11764 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: hutch1007 ( $800 )
Seat 5: jbhali ( $800 )
Seat 6: fivegees ( $800 )
Seat 7: hazel2nut ( $800 )
Seat 4: nickv2002 ( $800 )
Seat 3: mergoski ( $800 )
Seat 8: nsd4eva2 ( $800 )
Seat 10: schubeedoo ( $800 )
Seat 2: lefty63333 ( $800 )
Seat 9: jimob111 ( $800 )
Trny:15074131 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to nsd4eva2 [ Kd Ah ]
hutch1007 folds.
lefty63333 folds.
mergoski calls [15].
nickv2002 calls [15].
jbhali calls [15].
fivegees calls [15].
hazel2nut folds.
nsd4eva2 calls [15].

I didn't raise because I've been seeing you guys advocate just calling here. Was this a spot where I should raise?

jimob111 calls [5].
schubeedoo checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, Ad, 5h ]
jimob111 bets [45].
schubeedoo calls [45].
mergoski folds.
nickv2002 calls [45].
jbhali calls [45].
fivegees folds.
nsd4eva2 raises [345].

At this point, I've either lost or am up against 500 draws. Do I just call here? Can I fold? I know I should push here if I'm gonna raise; that was just a really dumb oversight.

jimob111 calls [300].
schubeedoo folds.
nickv2002 folds.
jbhali folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
jimob111 checks.
nsd4eva2 is all-In [440]
jimob111 is all-In [440]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
jimob111 shows [ Js, 5s ] two pairs, jacks and fives.
nsd4eva2 shows [ Kd, Ah ] a pair of aces.
jimob111 wins 1810 chips from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and fives.
nsd4eva2 finished in tenth place.
nsd4eva2 has left the table.

I'm pretty aware that I played this wrong. Was my mistake preflop or the flop?

[Weatherhead03]

[ QUOTE ]
Was my mistake preflop or the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Chances are if you had made a strong raise PF to around 80 the J5s would not have called.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Was my mistake preflop or the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Chances are if you had made a strong raise PF to around 80 the J5s would not have called.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, but that's results oriented. In general, should I raise here?

[DyessMan89]

The people who want you to raise this pre-flop are the same ones who suggested just limping or making a small raise in similar situations in past threads.

Anyways, given your situation, you either need to be a HUGE raise, and play the flop aggressivley ... or play it passivley pre-flop, and check/fold unless you make something big. The former will win more often, but has higher variance, and the latter will win less often, but has less variance. (youll lose less)

[ QUOTE ]
The people who want you to raise this pre-flop are the same ones who suggested just limping or making a small raise in similar situations in past threads.

Anyways, given your situation, you either need to be a HUGE raise, and play the flop aggressivley ... or play it passivley pre-flop, and check/fold unless you make something big. The former will win more often, but has higher variance, and the latter will win less often, but has less variance. (youll lose less)

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I go option #2, what's huge?

[jeffraider]

I like raising preflop. I play AK passively in some spots and situations but you've got the button here. I make it 90ish.

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising preflop. I play AK passively in some spots and situations but you've got the button here. I make it 90ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which spots and situations. I want very specific advice here if you guys are willing.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The people who want you to raise this pre-flop are the same ones who suggested just limping or making a small raise in similar situations in past threads.

Anyways, given your situation, you either need to be a HUGE raise, and play the flop aggressivley ... or play it passivley pre-flop, and check/fold unless you make something big. The former will win more often, but has higher variance, and the latter will win less often, but has less variance. (youll lose less)

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I go option #2, what's huge?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the former option, I like a raise to 165. (using Dalimans 3XBB+2X Limpers raising formula) I think its perfect for this scenario.

But once again, there are other more experienced posters who could help you out more. Hopefully youll get some other views on this.

From my experience in the $10+1, big hands preflop require big raises. It is always in your best interest to isolate with hands that most often can hold up on their own. AK may be a "drawing hand" but it is one that wins big when you flop top pair and get someone to chase you down with a lower kicker. You don't want to let drawing hands in cheaply as they are the ones that will break you if you do flop a pair (as in the instance above).

My general strategy for AK is a healthy raise preflop based on the number of limpers: no limpers means a 3x BB raise to create some action and not drive everyone out, while for each addition limper I increase my raise by about 1 more BB (this is in the early stages). Having position definately helps as you will miss the flop 2/3 of the time in which case I usually make a bet 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the pot on a ragged board, which your opponent will fold to unless they hit the flop or are expectionally fish (or the rare case that they play back at your with air). In the $10+1s, if I flop top pair with AK, I am generally taking the hand to the felt as there are just too many second best hands that will play back at you at this level to assume you are beating on what looks like a safe flop.

[valenzuela]

Preflop: I prefer to limp.( A poster once created a thread just to discuss the subject, search it. Note that on higher buyins u have to raise AK, ie: AT aint going all the way with TP).
Postflop: I bet 400 to get a call I might not get if I push.
Turn: I shove it in.
I play it just like you.
Im a somewhat decent player, not an authority but not a complete noob either.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I prefer to limp.( A poster once created a thread just to discuss the subject, search it. Note that on higher buyins u have to raise AK, ie: AT aint going all the way with TP).
Postflop: I bet 400 to get a call I might not get if I push.
Turn: I shove it in.
I play it just like you.
Im a somewhat decent player, not an authority but not a complete noob either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow that's comforting.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like raising preflop. I play AK passively in some spots and situations but you've got the button here. I make it 90ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which spots and situations. I want very specific advice here if you guys are willing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure! Just generally, I'll limp AK UTG to about MP2-3ish. If I'm first in anywhere around MP2 on I'll raise. If there are others in in front of me I normally want the button or cutoff to raise. If there are many in in front of me I always raise it on the button, which helps me play postflop. If there are many in in front of me and I'm not on the button I'll tend to limp behind and catch a good flop. If there is one or max two people in I'll tend to raise from MP2ish on.

None of those are hard and fast rules or anything, but basically I'm doing my best to make postflop easy for me. If there are six people in and I raise and I don't have position postflop then the flop can be tricky and dangerous to play. The button is powerful though. That's something that people smarter and better than me have been nailing into my head, that position is extremely important.

I'm not the AK expert of the world but AK used to be one of my big leaks and with those loose guidelines it's now a very solid winner for me and is good for about a double-up every set or two.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm doing my best to make postflop easy for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got it! Thanks!.

[lorinda]

I want to eliminate some of the limpers here so will raise it to 80 or something like that.
If they all call, it's not a disaster, but hopefully I'll end up heads up with position, or just take it down.

If the pot is already raised, I'd just call, but someone has to get the dead wood out of the pot.
AK is really easy to play postflop if you have raised preflop and hit an A or K.

On the flop, your own analysis seems fine. I'd push and take my chance. If it comes to the worst, hit runner runner quads.

The tough flop decision is precisely why you have to raise preflop.

Lori

Do donks limp with pocket pairs other than AA,KK, and possibly QQ, in 10+1?

[lorinda]

As well as A4o , J3s, K9o, 46s they do also limp with AA and KK and smaller pairs too.

Donks give their money away, that's why you have to survive long enough to take it.

Lori

[kong98]

I play the 10+1s and I'm pretty much always raising AK in any position. As you saw in this hand, you want to weed out some of the callers. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The recent advice I've read here is to not reraise with AK pre-flop in the early levels. If there is a raise in front of you, call it and play some post-flop poker.

Ummmm.... so I switched to only calling with AK when it's been raised (under the assumption that there's likely a PP out there that'll embarass me), and

Dealer: m3ttaphi posts the small blind $5.00
Dealer: rac3r247 posts the big blind $10.00
Dealer: DEALING POCKETS

nsd4eva has AK

goldcoast: my comeback starts now
Dealer: tommydotty raises $55.00 to $65.00
goldcoast: mark the time
Dealer: Ninospot calls $65.00
Dealer: goldcoast calls $65.00
Dealer: Blue Pelican folds
Dealer: nsd4eva calls $65.00
Dealer: Alphadave calls $65.00
Dealer: m3ttaphi folds
Dealer: rac3r247 calls $55.00
Dealer: DEALING FLOP ( As, 2s, Jh )
Dealer: rac3r247 checks
Dealer: tommydotty bets $200.00
Dealer: Ninospot folds
Dealer: goldcoast calls $200.00
Dealer: nsd4eva goes all in $895.00
Dealer: Alphadave folds
Dealer: rac3r247 folds
Dealer: tommydotty goes all in $630.00
Dealer: goldcoast goes all in $350.00
Dealer: $65.00 is not called, return back to nsd4eva
Dealer: tommydotty shows a Pair, Jacks
Dealer: goldcoast shows a Pair, Threes
Dealer: DEALING TURN ( Tc )
Dealer: DEALING RIVER ( Ts )
Dealer: tommydotty shows (Js,4s) for a Flush
Dealer: nsd4eva shows Two Pair, Aces and Tens
Dealer: goldcoast shows Two Pair, Tens and Threes
Dealer: Hand 82120207: tommydotty wins side pot($560.00) with a Flush
Dealer: Hand 82120207: tommydotty wins main pot($2045.00) with a Flush
Dealer: goldcoast finished in 8th place
Dealer: 1 hand left to the next level

[tigerite]

Now, this one is a bit different though, there's already over 200 in the pot, which is 20% of your stack. Anywhere between 20-50% and a push all-in with AK is fine, and what I would do here, to be honest. (Read dependent, though, if possible)

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm.... so I switched to only calling with AK when it's been raised (under the assumption that there's likely a PP out there that'll embarass me), and

Dealer: m3ttaphi posts the small blind $5.00
Dealer: rac3r247 posts the big blind $10.00
Dealer: DEALING POCKETS

nsd4eva has AK

goldcoast: my comeback starts now
Dealer: tommydotty raises $55.00 to $65.00
goldcoast: mark the time
Dealer: Ninospot calls $65.00
Dealer: goldcoast calls $65.00
Dealer: Blue Pelican folds
Dealer: nsd4eva calls $65.00
Dealer: Alphadave calls $65.00
Dealer: m3ttaphi folds
Dealer: rac3r247 calls $55.00
Dealer: DEALING FLOP ( As, 2s, Jh )
Dealer: rac3r247 checks
Dealer: tommydotty bets $200.00
Dealer: Ninospot folds
Dealer: goldcoast calls $200.00
Dealer: nsd4eva goes all in $895.00
Dealer: Alphadave folds
Dealer: rac3r247 folds
Dealer: tommydotty goes all in $630.00
Dealer: goldcoast goes all in $350.00
Dealer: $65.00 is not called, return back to nsd4eva
Dealer: tommydotty shows a Pair, Jacks
Dealer: goldcoast shows a Pair, Threes
Dealer: DEALING TURN ( Tc )
Dealer: DEALING RIVER ( Ts )
Dealer: tommydotty shows (Js,4s) for a Flush
Dealer: nsd4eva shows Two Pair, Aces and Tens
Dealer: goldcoast shows Two Pair, Tens and Threes
Dealer: Hand 82120207: tommydotty wins side pot($560.00) with a Flush
Dealer: Hand 82120207: tommydotty wins main pot($2045.00) with a Flush
Dealer: goldcoast finished in 8th place
Dealer: 1 hand left to the next level

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have stack sizes here? This may be a push.

[downtown]

Ok, generally speaking....

If I have to cold-call a raise from SB or BB with AK in level 2 or 3 I do, based on 1 raiser and 1 caller max. More callers/limpers than that and I generally push (stack sitation dependant I guess.) For example, in level 2, 5 callers would put 150 in the pot and to me it would be a clear push. In level 1 I generally raise and hope to isolate one of the limpers. In your original case I would make it 115. I feel the more than "100" number is a psychological barrier for poorer players. Purely conjecture. Hope this helps, even a little.

[EnderFFX]

You should NEVER EVER limp with this with 4 pre-flop callers. Raise to at least 60 (i'd say 100) to try and knock the field down to 1 or 2 people.

[45suited]

I think that the problem here is that people want cookie cutter answers that will apply to every situation. Things aren't that simple. You have to look at stack size factors, your position in the hand, the number of players already in the hand, the tendencies of the players already in the hand (if you have any reads), etc, etc, etc...

I have a simple rule: Unless I flop a monster, I am not going broke in a multi-way, unraised pot in level one. It's that simple. If you don't raise this hand up pre-flop, there's no way you should allow yourself to go broke with TPTK.

If you want a simple answer, here's one: I think that pushing pre-flop is better than the way that you played it. You were in a multi-way, unraised pot in level one. Going broke after limping is not an option with TPTK.

BTW, I have advocated limping in level 1 with AK from EP IF I am fairly sure that there will be donkish mini-raising after me. (As first in, from either UTG or UTG+1 when there has been lots of donish mini-raising) I like the limp / push pre-flop in that spot if there is sufficient overlay as a way to keep things simple for noobs in the 11s. It's really a good play, even though nobody agrees with me. But this situation is TOTALLY different.