Am I so bad I can't even play KK? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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McHonts

08-22-2005, 03:00 PM

OK, in a recent session on Party at .5/1 I had KK three times in 67 hands. Please take a look and tell me if there was something I missed. On the one I took down, I had put the last caller on basically what he had. The other two I was not expecting.

hand 1

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (10.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has As Ac (full house, aces full of queens).
Hero has Kc Ks (full house, kings full of queens).
CO has Kh Jd (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: SB wins 16.50 BB. 

-I put the guy on Qx or at best AQ. There was NO WAY he could have ... DOH!

Hand 2:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Kc (two pair, kings and eights).
MP2 has 8s 8c (four of a kind, eights).
Outcome: MP2 wins 10.25 BB. 

And Finaly.. hand 3:
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (18 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
Button has Ah Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 20 BB. 

I feel like everytime I get a decent hand that I want to raise for value, I am in middle or late position and it is checked to me with two or less limpers behind me. The same thing with the hands I want to protect. I can never seem to get a raise from the right when I have a hand that needs protecting. I generally bet out, but Lord knows you are not getting anyone to fold for a single bet no matter how bad their holding. Anyway, please help me out. I have very incosistent results. I will have two losing sessions and them make the losses back in a third session. Having played 18 sessions at Party, I am up about twenty bucks (not including the $50 deposit bonus). as an aside.. the whole "remove 'texas'" from the hand converter is a pain. I kept trying different things until I remebered seeing that.

Thanks in advance,

William

SoftcoreRevolt

08-22-2005, 03:02 PM

Hand 1 is fine, Hand 2 you played too passively on the flop, Hand 3 is fine.

Don't post results.

davelin

08-22-2005, 03:03 PM

Hand 1 - SB saved you money
Hand 2 - 3bet flop, it happens
Hand 3 - Perfectly fine and you won, why complain?

Sykes

08-22-2005, 03:04 PM

Be lucky you didn't lose a whole lot more in hand #1.

Hand #2, you need to 3 bet the flop, either that or stop and go on a non-turn diamond

Hand 3 is standard

Bradyams

08-22-2005, 03:10 PM

Hand 1 is perfect. Be happy your opponent is a complete moron cause you should have lost a lot more on that hand.

Hand 2 - 3bet the flop. You can't slow down to one raise here. This can be any pair, a draw, or overcards taking a shot at it hoping you have missed overcards. Then go from there.

Hand 3 is perfect.

Don't post results

Saint_D

08-22-2005, 03:17 PM

By my count you profitted 7 BB on these 3 hands collectively. Seems pretty good to me.

You played the first hand well. AA played so bad you should put him on your buddy list.

You MIGHT find a fold in the second hand with and A on the board. Read dependant.

Third hand also looks fine to me.

You kings will get cracked more than they hold up in multiway pots. It's a fact of life. But they will win more than thier fair share. And you did. In just 3 hands. Play for the long run and don't worry when your big pairs fail.

Get in 10K-20K hands and then look at your winnings for AA and KK.

The other players in all these hands played very poorly.

grjr

08-22-2005, 03:21 PM

If hand #1 were at Crypto (where there is no cap on river raises heads up) the SB could have gotten my house (if CO folded) if he wanted it because there is absolutely no way to put him on AA up to the river.

McHonts

08-22-2005, 03:26 PM

ok, I see I should have 3 bet the flop on hand 2. What would you put him on if you see him cap it? I doubt that he would have though. Not much agression at these tables. It seemed like I was right to slow down because he freaking came up with quads. I do not know if I could have pushed him of of his set.

Also, as to the AA in hand one, In a later session (things get really wierd about 11 cst) I watched three guys at my table NOT bet their AA. They took the pot in each hand and had to know they had the best of it. They would not bet out until the river. Really hard to put people on anything when there is no agression at all... I lost lots (to me) with top pair to a straight etc... Everytime I would catch a decent hand and push, they would call and then show something insane.

...and I won't post the result anymore.

bottomset

08-22-2005, 03:27 PM

hand1: you bet/raised all oportunities, and lost 3.5BB to an overset, SB is a terrible player, you could have lost a lot more

hand 2: 3bet flop

hand 3: good

its not an invincible hand, its very good, but it does lose, and fairly often

irishpint

08-22-2005, 03:31 PM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
Hand 1 - SB saved you money
Hand 2 - 3bet flop, it happens
Hand 3 - Perfectly fine and you won, why complain?

[/ QUOTE ]

hand 1 you got really lucky. you should have capped the river, after he should have 3 bet you. he should have taken more $ from you on the flop and turn as well.

numeri

08-22-2005, 03:34 PM

hand 1:
Fine. You should have lost about 7.5 BB more.

hand 2:
3-bet the flop. You might then consider a bet/fold on the turn.

hand 3:
Fine. You can't protect - the pot is too big - just bet for value.

imported_The Vibesman

08-22-2005, 03:35 PM

Was watching a tourney once on TV, a player was considering calling an all-in bet with a pair of 4's or something like that. As he's thinking, he says, "I've never lost with this hand."

After a few seconds, two players at the table say at the same time, "Well, we know it can't be aces or kings!"

These get cracked, happens all the time. As the others said, you are very lucky you didn't lose much more in Hand 1, that other guy is terrible; and reraise hand 2 on the flop.

krimson

08-22-2005, 03:42 PM

Hand 1 and 3 are good. Hand 2 you should be more aggressive. You could have 3-bet the flop, or c/r'd a big street.

Don't get upset about your kings and aces being cracked. These are your biggest earners by far, and everything will even itself out in the end. Losing a hand doesn't mean you played it incorrectly!

tiltaholic

08-22-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seemed like I was right to slow down because he freaking came up with quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

unlearn your assumption that the results of the hand dictate the correct play on the flop.

everyone else covered the play of the hands, so i won't repeat...

08-22-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ok, I see I should have 3 bet the flop on hand 2. What would you put him on if you see him cap it?

[/ QUOTE ]

The made straight. Although, like you, I don't see any cap happening on the flop since that'd mean 69 on the villain's part.

Runin

08-22-2005, 04:55 PM

Haven't read all the replies yet but here's my view:
Hand #1 - looks good, you could have lost more if your opponent wasn't so passive.

Hand #2 - Gotta 3 bet this flop. There's nothing you could do about his hand, but you played this a little weak.

Hand #3 - Looks pretty good. You got paid off all the way, congrats.

Saint_D

08-22-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
unlearn your assumption that the results of the hand dictate the correct play on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tilt, I remember you before you became Yoda. Just remember that next time you think of using the Jedi mind trick to make me call your raises.

-D

P.S. Yoda is right.

baronzeus

08-22-2005, 08:59 PM

Oh my god. Reading hand 1 makes me want to cry. Please tell me you buddy listed that guy.

BTW how the hell else can you play KK but raise the [censored] out of it on that board.

KeysrSoze

08-22-2005, 11:18 PM

When you have KK, you should always want 8 opponents with random cards rather than just 1 when they will check/call you down no matter what. Lets say in each case everyone goes to the river, and puts in 4 big bets. With one opponent that has random cards you win about %80 of the time, so in 10 hands you expect to profit by (8x4=32)-(2x4=8)= 26 bets, averaging a profit of 2.6 bets per hand. With 8 opponents to the river your equity is something like %30 so your net profit would be close to (3x(4x8)=96)-(7x4=28)= 68 bets or 6.8 bets per hand in expectation. You crash and burn alot more but you're still ahead in the end.

That and thank the poker gods for guys like hand 1.

marchron

08-23-2005, 03:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like everytime I get a decent hand that I want to raise for value, I am in middle or late position and it is checked to me with two or less limpers behind me. The same thing with the hands I want to protect. I can never seem to get a raise from the right when I have a hand that needs protecting. I generally bet out, but Lord knows you are not getting anyone to fold for a single bet no matter how bad their holding.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand this feeling, and I certainly sympathize because I have the same problem sometimes, but it's irrelevant here. You were never drawn out on.

You should have lost a ton of money in Hand 1, and in Hand 2 the turn ace saved you from losing two tons.

When you have good hands, bet them. You'll get beat by better ones, and it seems sometimes that weeks go by where they get beat every single time, but most of the time your good hands are, well, good.