Forgive me for asking but limped to you in SB w/ AJo

[Maulik]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.
Hero? raise or call?

Final Pot: 2.66 BB

I think I want extra money in this pot but I have no chance of winning it without position UI.

Many here will tell you to raise, but I've been taking the HEFAP line with this many limpers and just completing the SB and looking to c/r the flop. If I don't hit the flop, I get out cheap. If I do hit the flop, my check raise with either drive people out or crank a pot I'm well ahead in, depending on the location of the flop bettor. Going for the flop c/r also gives me a look at the entire flop betting round which gives me some idea of where my pair really stands before I have to commit more chips.

I only do this though with multiple limpers. If it's one or two limpers to me in the SB, I raise nearly every time. With lots of limpers, the texture of the flop means a tremendous amount and I'd rather limit the pot size preflop with a hand like AJ.

AKo I'd always raise, AQo almost always. AJs I'd definitely raise as the suited part helps the hand work well with multiple limpers.

Can't say as I'm playing optimally, but it's in my comfort zone playing this way.

[Entity]

I complete.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
I complete.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this answer change based on the blind structure? At a normal 1/2 blind, Completing is clearly best (using the HEPFAP line), but something just feels icky about completing with 1/3 blinds, and I find my self raising, hoping to at least fold the BB (which happens never with him getting 11-1 of course...)

[meow_meow]

What happened to getting the money in with the best hand?

I don't see a downside to raising here. I don't buy that you are giving opponents better odds to peel one on the flop (obviously you are, but it doesn't make any difference to the vast majority of the opposition at this level).

Raising here gets more money into the pot than does cr'ing the flop if you hit. It stands at least a chance of dropping the BB as well.

What if you miss the flop completely? I've got no problem with check-folding the flop here, but a check by the pf raiser often gets checked around by opponents wary of the monster.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I complete.

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I find my self raising, hoping to at least fold the BB (which happens never with him getting 11-1 of course...)

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I think you answered your own question there /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Regardless of blind structure, a raise is just going to sweeten a pot and encourage people to draw out if you hit your overcards. It'll also tie you to the pot with a weak draw on the flop when you miss, costing you more chips to draw to what might very well end up 2nd best hand (top pair with this many players is pretty weak).

[Trix]

I raise.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I want extra money in this pot but I have no chance of winning it without position UI.

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You dont have to win it every time..

[kidcolin]

It's close, but not really because of the pot sweetening effect many think. With a premium hand you have to raise, becuase your edge is significant. But your preflop equity with a hand like this isn't THAT big. You don't even necessarily have the best hand (a lot of weak tight guys will limp with AQ or AJ after 2 or more limpers), they'll be a pair out there already, and you probably have a couple counterfited cards. You're out of position the rest of the hand. And you have no post-flop fold equity. You have to play near-flawlessly post-flop to be able to take advantage of your preflop equity share.

In position after a limper or two, your raise sets you up to take down the pot unimproved. With AJo, you migth raise a guy with pocket 6s or A5, but you still take the pot down on a K Q 5 board with the worst hand.

So if you can play masterfully post flop, push that edge. Otherwise, just completing can make the hand easier to play the rest of the way and take advantage of some post-flop mistakes.

[Victor]

i complete although i dont think raising is too bad and is proly +ev. fwiw, i raise aq 100% here so that shows how close it seems to be.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

easy raise. You will have the most pot equity preflop enough of the time to warrent a raise.

[baronzeus]

I raise. But I just complete ATo. Is that wrong?

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I want extra money in this pot but I have no chance of winning it without position UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't win this unimproved with position, either.

The reason to raise here is if you think you have an equity advantage, and I think it's close. Would be interesting to come up with some reasonable ranges for the limpers and see what PokerStove says.

[Subby]

I raise because punishing limpers is fun.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Would be interesting to come up with some reasonable ranges for the limpers and see what PokerStove says.

[/ QUOTE ]
This assumes the typical 40/5 player on party 3/6. If you disagree, oh well, it's close I think.

Hand 1: 17.5683 % 16.79% 00.77% { random }
Hand 2: 25.8463 % 24.06% 01.79% { AJo }
Hand 3: 18.8292 % 17.53% 01.30% { 99-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 18.8510 % 17.56% 01.29% { 99-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 5: 18.9052 % 17.61% 01.30% { 99-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would be interesting to come up with some reasonable ranges for the limpers and see what PokerStove says.

[/ QUOTE ]
This assumes the typical 40/5 player on party 3/6. If you disagree, oh well, it's close I think.

Hand 1: 17.5683 % 16.79% 00.77% { random }
Hand 2: 25.8463 % 24.06% 01.79% { AJo }
Hand 3: 18.8292 % 17.53% 01.30% { 99-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 18.8510 % 17.56% 01.29% { 99-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 5: 18.9052 % 17.61% 01.30% { 99-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt close at all. easy raise.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I want extra money in this pot but I have no chance of winning it without position UI.

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You can't win this unimproved with position, either.

The reason to raise here is if you think you have an equity advantage, and I think it's close. Would be interesting to come up with some reasonable ranges for the limpers and see what PokerStove says.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think as far as your equity edge goes, you clearly have one and based solely on that you should raise. But that's not it since your hand doesn't play very well in a biggish pot where people will call you down with middle pair profitably and other annoying stuff.

[Haupt_234]

So this would be an easy raise with KQo too?

Haupt_234

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
this isnt close at all. easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't saying it was close between a raise and a call, i was saying that it was a close description of hand ranges /images/graemlins/smile.gif


yes, I agree, raise



Just FYI,

ATo is also very +EV here as well, but A9o is even EV, so you should never raise A9o.

Apparently any suited A is raisable here too as long as you don't mind playing OOP.

[sammy_g]

baronzeus, thanks for cooking this on the stove for me. I'm not sure I agree with the ranges, tho. I'm a 30/20, and I wouldn't dream of playing most of that offsiut cheese. A 40/5 guy just plays 10% more hands. I think your range is too wide.

Also, sometimes passive players limp with hands that dominate us like AQ and occasionally even big pairs. A 40/5 guy doesn't raise often.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
baronzeus, thanks for cooking this on the stove for me. I'm not sure I agree with the ranges, tho. I'm a 30/20, and I wouldn't dream of playing most of that offsiut cheese. A 40/5 guy just plays 10% more hands. I think your range is too wide.

Also, sometimes passive players limp with hands that dominate us like AQ and occasionally even big pairs. A 40/5 guy doesn't raise often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding AQ etc, I'd put it in the top5% of hands for sure, (AQ+, AA-TT, AJs)

As far as the other hands, I think J8o is really the only really questionable hand, but pokerstove puts the hands I put in as exactly 35% of the total hands in Hold'em.

Part of the reason your VPIP is 30 is because your high stealing range and defending range increases your VPIP considerably. These guys who don't do that stuff will likely have to limp 15% more hands than you to keep that VPIP, and I think even J9o falls in that category.

[Entity]

I think this is a fairly accurate range, given that the BB will rarely be folding here.

Hand 1: 15.9763 % 14.80% 01.18% { TT-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, AJo-A2o, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 2: 15.9749 % 14.80% 01.18% { TT-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, AJo-A2o, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 3: 15.9467 % 14.76% 01.19% { TT-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, AJo-A2o, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 4: 15.9508 % 14.77% 01.18% { TT-44, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, AJo-A2o, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 5: 21.3427 % 19.78% 01.56% { AJo }
Hand 6: 14.8086 % 14.02% 00.79% { random }

That handrange is approximately the top 40.6% of hands, minus the typical ranging hands. That means these limpers are fairly loose passive -- the typical sort -- probably around a 46/5 overall if I had to guess.

And all I really want to say about the "easy raise" dogma here is that there's more to life than preflop equity, and this is one case where I find that to be especially true. The same can be said for raising/not raising KQo (22% equity, slightly higher than AJo here), QJs (22.75% equity, higher than AJo), 77 (20.6%), etc.

KJo and A9o also have edges here, as does A5s, and I don't see the choruses coming out with "easy raise" when people complete with those.

Rob

[sammy_g]

Actually I would say these guys' defending range is much looser than mine, particularly out of the small blind. This can account for a lot of the 40% in a 5- or 6-handed game.

I see a lot of limping with AQ- and AK-type hands from players with a very low PFR, even if those hands are top 5%. Take that for what it is worth.

Generally the loose players add suited hands that can improve to big hands instead of offsuit trash in my experience.

Also I think it's a mistake to assume that all of your opponents are this loose, even if some are.

The pokerstove analysis is convincing, but I think it leaves out the impact of forcing fish to make bad choices post flop.

It's the same argument SSH has about waiting until the turn to raise. Yes, you give up some EV on the flop by not raising, but you gain even more EV on the turn raise. I think ATo/AJo are good hands for this type of tradeoff preflop when you're faced with lots of limpers and acting out of position.

That said though, baron's pokerstove numbers make it pretty clear the only truly bad choice is folding.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally the loose players add suited hands that can improve to big hands instead of offsuit trash in my experience.

Also I think it's a mistake to assume that all of your opponents are this loose, even if some are.

[/ QUOTE ]

These were both in my thoughts /images/graemlins/smile.gif we are on te same page.

As for 1) I could add more suited hands but I don't imagine your equity will change much.

As for 2) I can't do much about this without reads. And I think that on average, players are VPIP 40 at this level, so that's the best I can do here. Some will be tighter, some will be looser, but there's no way for me to tell.

[whodaman]

i raise,,,, we have the best hand...

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
So this would be an easy raise with KQo too?

Haupt_234

[/ QUOTE ]

not easy, but i prolly still raise it. this is assuming outplay your opponents post flop. KQs is an easy raise.