Flop Decision 20-40

[PokerPrince]

I'm in an ok 20-40 game. It's not as loose or as fishy as I'de like but this hand came up while I'm awaiting my table change. One weakish limper in MP, folded to CO who raises. This player usually has pretty solid raising standards but I've seen him attempt to isolate single limpers with less than stellar holdings. I'm on the button with 10 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/club.gif and 3-bet. SB(weak) calls it all cold, BB folds, limper folds, CO calls. Three of us see the flop for 3 small bets each.

Flop- 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Checked to me and I bet. SB checkraises and CO checkreraises. I decide to muck. Here's the kicker, so does SB! CO takes it down on the flop.

Now SB's flop checkraise doesn't mean too much to me as it truly could be A LOT of things(any pair,any draw,anything). CO's check 3-bet is another story. I was pretty pleased with the board when it came down, but after this move I felt my chances of having best hand were shattered. Anyone call? If not, what if you held Jacks? These situations don't come up very often so I'de like to see what others think.

PokerPrince

[Ulysses]

Anyone call?

No. I'd raise or muck here. It feels like CO is trying to get you out of the way. What does he do that with? Well, maybe he'd prefer to be heads-up w/ SB if he has something like AhJh. On the other hand, maybe he flopped a set on this pretty coordinated board.

Now SB's flop checkraise doesn't mean too much to me

See, here's the problem. It doesn't mean much to CO either if he's a good player. But he doesn't like your pre-flop 3-bet. That's why I'd consider 4-betting in your place, though I don't think mucking is all that bad either. A lot depends on how aggressive CO is.

As for Jacks, I think they are essentially the same hand as Tens in this situation. In fact, I think Tens are actually a little better due to their backdoor straight chance.

[elysium]

hi poker
you want to know if 94 or 97 are out there? no. a set could be.

in this situation, the best thing to do is call. you have excellent position and you can fold on the turn if the board gets scarrier. you must be tenacious on the flop with an over pair. your opponents might have been value betting with powerful draws. pot odds, however, kick in here and the possibility of a rag on the turn combined with pot odds make this a call. not an easy call, but a definate call.

the lay-down wasn't terrible. i give it an awful plus. if foe no other reason poker, you must call to keep from being run-over. but here, you had a tiny +ev and a need to show that they can't run-over you. here, you are in a tiny lead. you should reraise the reraiser here.

[Ulysses]

the best thing to do is call.
not an easy call, but a definate call.
you must call to keep from being run-over.

Just when I think I have your strategy pegged....

B o o m !

you should reraise the reraiser here.

[MHoydilla]

I would four bet the flop because it would seem logical that if MP would isolate a limper with an inferior holding preflop that he may be trying to isolate on the flop knocking out the best hand. If he is a solid player wouldn't he just call the BB raise if he had a set hoping that your 3 bet preflop was on a big pocket pair and would mean an auto three bet on the flop allowing him to checkraise the BB and you on the turn. I would take his three bet here as Ax of H, 77, A7s, or an overpair. I would not play this hand differently if I had Jacks.

[PokerPrince]

I put CO on a pocket pair larger than mine. A limp 3-bet seems to show great power to me.

PokerPrince

[PokerPrince]

Have you been eating the wild mushrooms in your backyard again?

PokerPrince

[MHoydilla]

Ok first I agree with the comments to elysium. Secondly do you think that the MP would do the same with 77, A7s, or AX of H's. If he would play these hands the same would you still fold in retrospect? if not please explain why. Thanks MH

[Ulysses]

I put CO on a pocket pair larger than mine. A limp 3-bet seems to show great power to me.

I think you have to make the same basic read that we all make all the time pre-flop when facing a potential steal-raise : was that for real or not?

You seem to think this was a legitimate 3-bet, in which case your guess of a bigger pocket pair is very reasonable.

My point was simply that (based on what you wrote), it might also be reasonable to think that CO is trying to get rid of you and isolate the poor-playing SB by representing a much stronger hand than he actually has. Based on your description of SB, he might not be wrong doing it with any pair. Overcards w/ heart draw, A[5678]s, 77, 99, etc. all seem like reasonable hands he might have.

All in all, I think you just have to go with your read, and based on that, mucking was a very reasonable way to go.

[PokerPrince]

Throughout the night whenever he would raise a large field it was something big like AA,KK,etc. I saw him reraise a weak raiser with KTs as well. He could easily have made this preflop raise with Axs,KTs,88-55,etc. I've been pondering over this hand for several days now and I'm still not sure what the best plan of action is/was. I'de seen him throw down so many big pocket pairs during showdowns throughout the night that perhaps that affected my decision as well.

PokerPrince

[PokerPrince]

After the hand I said, "A8 no good huh?". He shook his head and said he held pocket Aces. Who knows if he had em' or not. For all I know he could have big draw and played it super-aggressively.

PokerPrince

[elysium]

hi ulysses, poker
yea, i was typing and thinking at the same time. when i remembered poker's excellent position, i realized the correct move was not to call but to reraise. i approached from the perspective of whether or not a call was warranted, and then, upon realizing poker had the button, i quickly realized that he should reraise.

yea, i should have advised a reraise immediately, only when someone is debating whether a particular fold was correct, you're thinking more about whether to fold or call. as i delved deeper into this, to my surprise i realized that it was a call or reraise situation. i might have 290 posts ulysses, but i'm still new at this. you should see what happened at the ciaffone question thread. but i couldn't see the hidden 8 in the paragraph. whew....,but the advise was still accurate, albeit andy, just from another perspective.

[ACPlayer]

Assuming he is an tight player his legitimate hands consistent with the pre-flop raise and post flop check re-raise are sets and overpairs and perhaps AK - specially if he thinks that he can get you to fold an AK which should be your min 3-bet hand.

Now, if he is a creative player, he could be bankshotting off the SB and would be willing to 3 bet the flop with a draw or perhaps even two overcards to greatly increase his chances of winning.

So, it depends on your read -- raise or fold.