Either the Best Call or the Worst Call I've Ever Seen - Opinions?

[Mens Rea]

BM 5-10 (I have $7500ish, opp covers)

Folded to me in the Cutoff with KJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, raise to $30 - opp who is loose and bad reraises to $100. I call.

Flop is 4 10 A.

I check, he bets $400 (I'm thinking he has KK or QQ at this point). I raise to $1000. He just calls. Odd.

Turn 6.

I bet $1500. Again, he just calls. I am almost certain he has KK.

River A.

I push. He calls. Oops.

I table my second nut no pair. He tables the first nut no pair - KQ. WTF?

First, I understand that I overplayed this hand. I've been doing that a lot lately and don't need anyone to tell me. I've been running really hot lately and as a result, I'm full of myself and start to think I can outplay everyone - hence this kind of play.

Has everyone ever been called down by a hand like this? Doesn't the flop checkraise let him know I have at least a pair?

So, best call or worst call ever - it has to be one of the two, no?

[Mens Rea]

Oh and PS - this is not a bad beat post - I'm not whining in the least. I just thought this was interesting and wanted to get your thoughts on what might go through someone's head here.

Obviously, I think his call is horrible, but I'm wondering if something in my betting pattern, etc. gave something away.

Just in case I wasn't clear.

[9cao]

I think I will give Villain benefit of the doubt and say good call.

The first question is, why call reraise preflop? I guess stacks were so deep it is correct but seems like you are dominated like 50% of the time here.

The second question is, if opponent has gone that far with KK, what makes you think he will fold on the river, when the river made his hand better?

The third question is, why not pick a better spot for someone who will put 750 BB's in with king high? This almost makes me feel this hand is made up.

[Mens Rea]

I agree with everything you said. I've just been doing this a lot lately and hands like this are probably very slightly +EV long run for me. Honestly, I've been getting board with poker and doing this helps me mix it up.

Admittedly, I took this particular hand too far.

[LuvDemNutz]

If this happened to me I would've thought he somehow saw my cards.

[Mens Rea]

Totally opposite end of the table - No chance of this happening.

[rwanger]

Seriously...is there some way he could have seen your cards? I mean, even if you have some horrible tell that reveals you don't have a great hand...he STILL only has K high.

What if he was correct in his read, but you had some tiny pocket pair or low pair and were "bluffing" with the best hand? Something is very, very fishy about this.

And if he doesn't know exactly what you hold, it is the most bizarre play ever on his part. Unless, he misread his hand and thinks he has something better than just K high. Or is it possible that he's one of those players who says to himself "I know this guy is bluffing, therefor I call", even though he might not be able to beat your "bluff"?

[Mens Rea]

He was horrible, as in one of those guys who calls with J high and says that he knew his opponent was bluffing.

I thought that the checkraise on the flop would at least make it clear that I had a pair. It wasn't exactly a draw heavy board.

And again, there was no chance at all, unless there was a lipstick cam left over from a tournament that he had access to. I'm very protective of my cards including shielding them from people who may be standing behind me, and I only look once.

[rwanger]

[ QUOTE ]
He was horrible, as in one of those guys who calls with J high and says that he knew his opponent was bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly hope that you decided this AFTER you bluffed off your entire stack to him!

If so, rebuy and make the same play with pocket 2's.
If not, lesson learned.

[TheWorstPlayer]

He was value betting against his opponent's J high.

[rwanger]

[ QUOTE ]
He was value betting against his opponent's J high.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

LOL!

I hadn't considered that...

[thejameser]

which one was the loose and bad one again? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[n1bd]

[ QUOTE ]
Totally opposite end of the table

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet he's sitting on your immediate left? Must be a large table. Or very shorthanded.

[captZEEbo1]

Stop trying to do a 7.5 buyin bluff.

It doesn't get much worse than your play. I see people all the time who think they should have won if the other guy would have just folded. They play NL because large bets are their only chance of winning. His call, whether bad or not, is a completely different issue. You should never have even been there.
That being said, he most likely either 1) had someone signal who could see your cards because you pull this kind of thing all the time or 2) had so little respect for your hands based on your past plays that he thought KQ high was good. Either way, your play was really really bad.

You can only attack a loose and bad player when you have a decent hand. You cannot bluff a bad player, no matter what. Textbook stuff here. I see nothing wrong with calling the preflop raise against a loose and bad player. $30 is a very small price to pay if you stand to gain $7470 on the back side. I do this kind of thing all the time and it is where most of my profit comes from in NL. But not in my wildest dreams would I have played the hand like you did post flop.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
He was horrible, as in one of those guys who calls with J high and says that he knew his opponent was bluffing.


[/ QUOTE ]

why did you pick this guy to bluff at?

Marnix

[Mens Rea]

Again gentlemen, as I explained above, I don't normally play like this and I realize my play is bad. As I said, I've been fooling around with stuff like this lately, and have basically broken even.

What I am interested in is what you think of opponent's call. I'd like to know if there is anyone here who can pick something out of my line that would induce them to call themselves, or if anyone at all would call this bet. I just thought it was interesting, because it was by far and away the strangest call I've ever seen.

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't get much worse than your play. I see people all the time who think they should have won if the other guy would have just folded. They play NL because large bets are their only chance of winning. His call, whether bad or not, is a completely different issue. You should never have even been there.
That being said, he most likely either 1) had someone signal who could see your cards because you pull this kind of thing all the time or 2) had so little respect for your hands based on your past plays that he thought KQ high was good. Either way, your play was really really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what level you play at, but I would go so far as to say that 80-90% of what I would call bad players would lay down JJ-KK, given the way the action played. Your opinion might be correct at $1-2, but I don't think it holds true here. eAnyone agree/disagree?

And I also think that the statement - "You can't bluff a bad player" is assinine. They can be bluffed - it just requires a different kind of bluff than one would use against a skilled opponent.

But I digress yet again - I just wanted some opinions on the call.

Doyle Brunson's Super System 2, page 533.
"You should never start out bluffing at a pot and keep bluffing at it without an out"

Your only out was him pretty much folding. That is not an out. Not only would bad players lay down JJ-KK here but good players may as well. BUT...since you say you make these plays all the time I wouldn't lay down to you either. He obvously had a reason for calling. The fact that maybe he should not have called is no excuse for your play. I see this all the time. As far as his call goes, he clearly had a reason for calling and it is most certainly one of the 2 points I have already mentioned.

[Mens Rea]

Look - I disagree with your basic premise but maybe we have a misunderstanding. This particular player has never seen a play like this from me before.

"He clearly had a reason for calling."

This is what I want to explore. What was his reason? Something in my line, just a crazy call? I want to know because I enjoy this kind of play, it works in my game, and I'm trying to work on it even more. Simply repeating that you "see this all the time" doesn't add anything. What levels do you play/do you have an example.

Oh, and Doyle aside, my out was a J - not that this had anything to do with my strategy.

[tworooks]

[ QUOTE ]
"You should never start out bluffing at a pot and keep bluffing at it without an out"

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense. Except the 3 Q's left in the deck would give him something called the nut straight, so this is probably not the best quote to use.

[flawless_victory]

easily the best call ive ever heard of. really brilliant.

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
easily the best call ive ever heard of. really brilliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen. Oh yeah, and OP, where was this game again?

Then I go back to my reasoning for his call. But then again I am real confused if he had never seen something like this from you. If he knew you did this sort of thing and it is part of your game he could have had someone to see your cards and signal. Very remote but still possible. If he really did not know you then I am completely stumped on his calling.
As far as your outs you said you pushed after the river, that was the majority of the pot. You pushed with KJ high. That is a stone cold bluff on the river. I just don't agree with this type of play. Just a personal preferrence I guess.

I do not understand why this is so difficult to understand. He started bluffing and continued until the major bluff on the river, in which no outs were hit and he was left with KJ high. He didn't hit the Q or J, he missed and still bluffed the rest of his chips, which was the majority. Now if he went all-in on the turn that would be a different story. I wouldn't do it but that would have been a play light years beyond what actually happened. That would be a play Doyle may remotely consider.

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle Brunson's Super System 2, page 533.
"You should never start out bluffing at a pot and keep bluffing at it without an out"

Your only out was him pretty much folding. That is not an out. Not only would bad players lay down JJ-KK here but good players may as well. BUT...since you say you make these plays all the time I wouldn't lay down to you either. He obvously had a reason for calling. The fact that maybe he should not have called is no excuse for your play. I see this all the time. As far as his call goes, he clearly had a reason for calling and it is most certainly one of the 2 points I have already mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell can you have outs after the river - according to your strategy, I should never bluff?

[rwanger]

There is nothing fishy about your line. I would have given you credit for a good hand...and I'm sure many good and bad players alike would also. I strongly suspect that you were giving off some sort of major physical tell. Think that's possible?

[GimmeDaWatch]

If this guy is that insanely bad, it seems like there are better ways to get his money. And ya, this is the best call (specifically) and worst call (generally) ever.