Waiting for Turn with big pockets

[slim]

This is a play that I see some players use(who I think are good players)but I never do, but am thinking of doing.

You have AAorKK in LP and raise. Say there are 3-4 players in and you are last. Flop is Qxx and EP bets.....in this situation, I always raise and either EP calls or re-raises. But I've noticed someplayers just call the EP bet and when a brick comes on the turn andEP bets again,they raise. Obviously, just calling the flop bet after raising PF indicates AK and thus encourages EP to bet again on the turn with top pair.

Is this a sound play or is it too fancy? The reason I am thinking of using thisplay is because if I raise the flop, everyone knows I have KK/AA.

[J.R.]

I might try this heads'up with position, but in a multiway pot I am raising (unless it was jammed pre-flop multi-way and the bettor is on your right, in which case you may be OK trying to knock everybody out with a turn raise). This probably isn't my normal play unless EP is very weak-tight in the face of aggression but bets until told there is a better hand.

[Homer]

Ditto J.R.'s comments.

-- Homer

[slim]

The few times I saw this play, it was not heads up. But the board has to be pretty specific, like Q-7-2 where there isn' much chance for 2pair or flush/str8 draws. They used this play to trap the bettors for 2 BB, not to knock them out. I know because I got trapped......
I wouldn't do it with 6-7 players but what about 3-4?

[CrackerZack]

Don't do this with KK, ESPECIALLY against 3-4 players. You need to knock anyone one with an Ace out with the double bet as that over card will beat you. In LL I have found that you have to jack it to get people to lay down a decent ace (AK, AJ, AT on a Q72 board) and that free card can be a killer. I've also seen numerous times, people call the double bet with AK so when you have AA they're drawing nearly dead.

[elysium]

hi slim
a lot depends on how many players called the EP bet on the flop. if you're 3-way, you can call or raise; but the best play is to lay it down.

the main problem here is that you cannot represent the Q. your opponents won't be folding when you raise, so you shouldn't raise. the only reason for raising here would be for the free card. the problem of course though, is that your opponent probably has top pair. i like folding here, but if you're going to play, call. rope it. but the better play may be to fold.

[Jim Easton]

Why would he fold AA or KK on a Q x x flop?

[Ginogino]

Slim:
I'd want a combination of ingredients to slowplay pocket A's or K's on a flop of Qxx. First, I'd want to be headsup or against two players at most. And second, I'd want the "xx" to be 7 or lower and to have the "xx" create no flush and no straight draws (in particular, no straight draws that are likely to have hit an opponent's hand -- a Q53r board hasn't given most players a straight draw). A flop of, say, Q96r is trouble for a slowplayed AA or KK, I think. Multiway, it's too likely to produce hidden 2-pair and hidden straight draws.

Reading between the lines of your post, it looks like in the "typical" situation you write about, the EP's flop bet is folded by the intermediate players, so that when the late player holding AA or KK slowplays he is doing so only when headsup. This is probably a good situation in which to think about slowplaying AA or KK. Headsup you might want to slowplay even against a two-tone board, as this will help counterbalance a raise in the same position with a flush draw (the free-card raise), which becomes more likely to succeed the more worried you get your opponent that you might have AA or KK.

Gino

[slim]

Ginogino:

Thanks for the reply. Let me give be more specific.
Situation #1:
You are in LP with AA and raise PF and there are 3 players total. Flop is Q-7-2 rainbow. EP bets,MP calls......is it a good play to just call with 2 opponents and raising on the turn on anything except a Q?

Situation#2:
Same as above but flop of Q-7-2 with 2 suited. EP bets, MP calls......should you raise? If you just call and the turn is the 3rd card of that suit, you can save a SB if EP or MP made a flush, if they don't make a flush, and you check the turn, you will induce a bluff bet on the river, if not you can bet out and probably get called.

[Bob T.]

Is this a sound play or is it too fancy? The reason I am thinking of using thisplay is because if I raise the flop, everyone knows I have KK/AA.

If this is really the problem, then sometimes on the flop you might want to raise unimproved AK, or AQ. I would especially do this with AK suited, and a backdoor flush draw. I think that many players will call to take one off on the flop, but won't put in a big bet on the turn, if you raise the flop, you might capture several small bets, where you won't have the chance to capture several big bets if you raise the turn. I think that raising the flop is by far superior. I realize that if I raise the turn, I might get more out of my opponents, if they are all going that far anyway, but I think that raising the flop is more likely to get more out of them. I Also only have one pair, although it is likely to be a good one pair. I want to punish them early, and if I frequently raise on the flop, it will also be more likely that when there is an early position bettor, the intervening player will fold, because they know that when I open raise, they are likely going to be paying a big bet, (or two small bets) at least, to see the turn. Then my big pair is going to stand up more often, because my opponent will eliminate more players with his bet on the flop. If I am going to be frequently raising the flop, what better hands to be doing it with than AA, or KK.

[slim]

interesting point to raise with AKwhen bet into on the flop. Do you ever do that ? I'venever tried that (except when it's HU). Whatwould you do if you raise the flop with no pair and then don't pair the turn? Will youbet out again or take the free card?

[bernie]

havent read the others yet...

this is a great play when used right. i suggest reading HPFAP the loose games section which goes into great detail about these types of plays. and they can be money makers AND money savers

welcome to the next level of play

b

[bernie]

there are times to do it with 6-7 players and draws on the board on the flop. it's a matter of cutting odds and making callers make mistakes. if the pots big, a flop bet/raise isnt protecting anything. it's not always a play to let players 'catch'.

b

[bernie]

folding an overpair on a Q high flop would be terrible unless you really know the player. if you think you can get players to fold, raise. this will also tell you about your opponents hand. im not folding an overpair for 1 bet. you gotta be nuts.

b

[bernie]

you can play it either way on both hands.

b