Beginning with Real Money

Hey everybody I have been playing poker with play money in Pokerroom for around 14 months and am winning regularly in limits and SnGs. Also I have recently begun playing the freerolls and managed to steadily improve, coming tenth yesterday (my first money finish, out of 2400 ppl)!

So now I've decided I want to play with real money but I still don't know what games I should start off with. I have a bankroll of around $50~70.

In limits the lowest offered is .25~.50 so I don't know if I should play it since I only have around 100 odd BBs for my BR. On the other hand should I play SnGs (I come in the money around once out of every two or three tourneys), or even MTTs?

Appreciate all your advice, Thanks!

[Mooski]

Playing tournies for play is different to playing for real money. I would suggest you still play at the lowest cash entry tournies you can. I have only played UltimateBet and Poker Stars and there are $1 tournies at UB, but I'm not sure what the lowest buyin is at Stars.

If you're wanting to play limit HE, then Stars has 0.02/0.04 tables as well as the 0.05/0.10 tables, so they would be a better starting point for your bankroll.

yeh i know theres a big difference between real and play but I have been met with some success in real money (i.e. freerolls)...also, I know about UB and Stars but the problem is I don't think they use moneybookers, the site I use to transfer my money. And at the moment I'm only playin at Pokerroom.

I am in almost an identical situation to you - just made my first deposit last week for $150.

I think the cheapest SNG touries at Pokerroom are $5+$0.50

I don't know what the lowest level for limit hold em is, but I started at .25/.50 - that gave me 300BB, which was a comfortable starting point for me.

The problem is that in order to claim my $30 deposit bonus, I need to amass about 200 points by October 15 - the problem is that you only get points for hands where the rake is over $.50 - and that rarely happens at .25-.50. As such, I made the conscious decision to move up to $1-$2 and see how it goes. I figure that the risk that I will blow out my bankroll is small compared to the $30 payoff I will get - and so far so good. I am winning about 8BB/100 at this level - though I know that will probably fall - and I am getting my points fast and furious - I only need 120 more points to get my deposit bonus.

I have also played 4 SnG tournaments - one limit HE and 3 NL - and haven't finished in the money yet. I am gonna stay away from the tournaments for now, until I feel more comfortable with my limit game.

Right now, I am basically playing exactly according to the hand charts in SSHE for a tight game - though perhaps slightly looser. For the beginning player, I strongly suggest following this system.

I have played about 100 hands at .25/.50 where I was beating the table like I was Ike Turner (about 30BB/100) - then about 60 at .50/1 (20BB/100) and now, about 130 at $1/$2 (8BB/100). Make no mistake, I am not thinking that these are likely to sustain themselves over time - but it is nice to get off to a good start.

Two things I have noticed

1) I have a major leak postflop - I often do not respect the strength of my opponents hands and will stick to a premium preflop holding even when it does not develop as it should - ie AJs, flop of K,J,4 rainbow. I have attempted to fix this by consciously looking at what I have when the flop hits and trying to look at it independent of my thought process preflop - what WAS a very strong holding preflop is now unlikely to win.

2) My VP$IP is about 25% - that seems awfully high to me, but I am playing the SSHE hands for a tight game. This would seem to be partly a product of my getting better than average hands, as evidenced by my high BB/100 numbers, and on the fact that I will rarely play tighter than the book, but will sometimes play slightly looser (ie. where SSHE says to play AKs-ATs, I might play with an A9s.

3) in SSHE, I do not like the advice of playing all pocket pairs in middle position or later. In middle position, I will not play pocket pairs lower than 77 - in late position, I would go down to 66 - any lower and there would need to be at least 3 callers ahead of me.

There is a HUGE difference between the play money and real money when it comes to tournaments.

You will find the players are A LOT tighter in the real money games - and you that guy who ALWAYS goes All-in on the first hand? Not likely to find him at a real money tournament.

[SheridanCat]

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Hey everybody I have been playing poker with play money in Pokerroom for around 14 months and am winning regularly in limits and SnGs. Also I have recently begun playing the freerolls and managed to steadily improve, coming tenth yesterday (my first money finish, out of 2400 ppl)!


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Try not to be too results oriented. For an explanation of why this can be dangerous, check out the Beginner's FAQ at the wiki. (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Beginners_FAQ#Interpretation_of_results)

Your current results aren't really a good barometer of how you're going to do as you move forward. Especially making the move from play money to real money.

However, that said, I think a move to real money is the right thing to do.

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In limits the lowest offered is .25~.50 so I don't know if I should play it since I only have around 100 odd BBs for my BR. On the other hand should I play SnGs (I come in the money around once out of every two or three tourneys), or even MTTs?


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I would suggest you avoid MTTs at this point with such a small bankroll. You will rarely cash in MTTs, so you will likely just watch your bankroll dwindle and if you play more than $1 buyins, you'll run out of money unless you get lucky.

As for whether to play cash games or SNGs, it's a toss-up. I play both and like it that way. Playing .25/.50 on a $70 bankroll could be dangerous, though, if you hit a down streak (see bholder's recent post about his downswing).

If I had a small bankroll, I think I'd be playing SNGs until it got more healthy. The reason is that a good player can expect to make the money regularly and you have more control over your downside since the amount you will pay is known upfront.

In fact, I recently did an experiment. I had $2 sitting in my PokerStars account. I'd been playing Party almost exclusively, but I decided to try an experiment. I wanted to see how far I could run $2. PokerStars has microlimits, so I stared out playing .05/.10 until I ran it up to about $20. Then I started playing exclusively SNGs and had some success, running the whole shebang up to $120 before I got bored and made a real deposit. I felt the control I had over the SNG variance plus the high likelihood of cashing makes them a pretty good bet for a limited bankroll.

Phew. That's a long winded way to suggest you play what you find most fun.

Regards,

T

[pokerstudAA]

Keep to the low limit games until you get some real money experience. I would recommend .25/.5 and $5 MTT/STT until you get about $250-300. Then start looking at .5/1 and the $10 tourneys. You do not want to redeposit. Playing within your bankroll is the most important thing you can do as a poker player. Playing within your roll will make sure you do not bust out of the game.

[archcity]

I was also killing play games at PokerRoom and decided to make the jump with a $100 deposit. It lasted about a month and a half. Without going into a lot of details, here are some things I did:

Jumped around to different games, usually SNGs 5.50, 11, 22, No Limit Ring (.25), and MTTs. I did this because it looked like SNGs (my initial focus) wasn't paying off and thought No Limit Rings would payoff better (thats were I made my quickest play money). After some bad play and frustrating losses there (it is much easier to lose big then win big when you initially jump to real money), I chased by playing 11 and 22 sngs and I did OK, but then slowly lost it all.

Didn't track or evalutate my play.

Got impatient. see above

I started with PokerRoom because I am a Mac user. I like it a lot, but with a small bank roll your money can go quick since they don't have many micro-limit games. I would have prefered smaller no-limit ring games like a $5 buy-in no limit ring game. That said, I think $5+.50 sngs are a good starting point and PokerRoom is good for that. I think most other sites have a higher rake for sngs like $5+1, or even $2+1.

After a month or so I won a home game and decided to put another $100 in and give it a go. I am doing much better this time around. I am doing some things differently.

Concentrating on one game, $5+.50 sngs - This way I can focus improving and learning one thing, like coming to the 2+2 forums, I spend most my time in the sng forum, rather than trying to absorb everything. Also I read Harrington on Hold'em 1 & 2, I did this before the first deposit, but now I find myself putting the info to better use. If you decide to do sngs these are a must read.

I play the PokerRoom Lucky Dollar tournaments for some MTT fun, but I am waiting to build up my bank roll a little before I start playing more MTTs.

Tracking and Evaluating my Play - I just created a spreadsheet to keep track of my finishes , In the Moneys (ITM) and Return on Investment (ROI). (Can't use PokerTracker since it is PC only, MacPoker Pro is a good option but is not yet for tournaments, so I haven't been keeping track of hand histories yet) I think this keeps me focused on how I play, not the money. For example a 40% ROI is a very good start, even though it might only show up as $20 or $30 in your account.

I also created a section in this spreadsheet where I list the things I did wrong when I lose, and keep track of how many times I do those things. That simple thing has helped a lot.

Keep it fun, be patient, and learn from your mistakes, you will make some. Play and real is like night and day, but much more challenging and fun.

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Tracking and Evaluating my Play - I just created a spreadsheet to keep track of my finishes , In the Moneys (ITM) and Return on Investment (ROI). (Can't use PokerTracker since it is PC only, MacPoker Pro is a good option but is not yet for tournaments, so I haven't been keeping track of hand histories yet) I think this keeps me focused on how I play, not the money. For example a 40% ROI is a very good start, even though it might only show up as $20 or $30 in your account.

I also created a section in this spreadsheet where I list the things I did wrong when I lose, and keep track of how many times I do those things. That simple thing has helped a lot.


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Can you send me the spreadsheet? Thanks! My email is fcheung2000@hotmail.com

[TaoTe]

Switch to holdempoker.com, it's a skin of pokerroom but for some reason offers lower limits. I think it has .15/.30 there. Though pokerroom does have a 30% deposit bonus so if you could very well play at the .25/.50 limits which are soft. As long as you can reload I don't think playing those limits will be difficult. I started at pokerrom with only $100 because I run a mac and I never went bust. I dropped down to $7 once but won a SNG and managed to build it up. If you play well and take advantage of bonus and reload offers you're BR should be well suited to .25/.50 within no time.

At first, starting out playing over you BR limit, I'd play really tight and try to nut peddle. Don't push small edges simply because your BR can't stand the fluctations that come with playing poker and trying to drive every +EV play. I'd tighten up on your starting hand requirements considerably. This is something I do everytime I try to move up a level until you're comfortable with how the action goes. Awhile ago I remember thinking, "Wow, 2/4. Gee, $4 bets on the turn and river. I don't know if I can handle that." And at the time myself and BR couldn't handle it. Now I'm hopping around the 1/2 2/4 games wondering how I ever played lower limits and eyeballing the 3/6 with a nervous anticipation knowing that will be eventual next move. Read and study, play them read some more, then play some more. You'll be a full fledged grinder in time. In the words of Mike Jones, "It takes grindin' to be a king. It takes grindin' to be a king.'

I did not mean for this post to be this long.

[TaoTe]

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I would suggest you avoid MTTs at this point with such a small bankroll. You will rarely cash in MTTs, so you will likely just watch your bankroll dwindle and if you play more than $1 buyins, you'll run out of money unless you get lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a complete brag post so I apologize in advance, but I've placed ITM in the last 7 MTT I've played with two final tables with a 3rd and a fifth finish. Heh, just short term variance I guess but man have those MTTs been kind to me lately. The last one I played it though I barely scraped into the money. I had a average stack for the table but small for the tourney. There was only one person to finish before the money and I didn't care about another money finish. I wanted to win. I ended up donking off my chips by pushing UTG with A9s because I honestly didn't think anyone would call without a big hand. I even prefaced my push with a message, "I'll be the bubble boy." Typing in that post actually got me into the money because someone at another table got busted moments before I did. Poker tournaments are strange animals.

And what about NL? Should I consider playin low NL games?

[AKQJ10]

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And what about NL? Should I consider playin low NL games?

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If you want to learn to play no-limit, then you should focus on that. Always make sure you have a bankroll of 20 buy-ins (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Bankroll) if you generally know what you're doing, and more if you don't. GSIH (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Getting_Started_In_Hold%27em) has some highly recommended advice about playing with a short stack in order to learn NLHE.

To start I would focus on either limit or NL, because they're very different games. And I would focus on either ring games or tournaments (if NLHE), because they're very different.

I tend to jump around a lot and become a jack-of-all-trades, but i wouldn't recommend it to a fellow beginner.

I have decided to focus exclusively on limit ring games. I think it is the best place to learn fundamentals and hammer out your weaknesses.

I like the SNG tournies, but I think that if you have any major leaks in your game, you can get killed at these.

For now, I am sticking with .25/.50, with occasional forays into higher limits, largely to get points for my deposit bonus. I will probably stick with this for at least my first 1000-3000 hands.

[SheridanCat]

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This is a complete brag post so I apologize in advance, but I've placed ITM in the last 7 MTT I've played with two final
tables with a 3rd and a fifth finish.


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That is an excellent run. Where are you playing and what kinds of tournaments?

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Heh, just short term variance I guess but man have those MTTs been kind to me lately.


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Ride the wave as far as it will take you. These wins will definitely help you ride out what will probably become a more normal distribution later.

Regards,

T

[TaoTe]

I've been playing at pokerroom NLHE 10+1 & 20+2 whenever I've felt in the mood for a big tournament, which as of late has not been much. Tournament poker makes me very nervous and tends to stress me out when compared to ring games. Hence why I only play them on occasion. It's more fun and relaxing playing 1k hands to grind out a profit than it is for me to sit and play for four hours to barely sneak into the money. Still, if I want to play any live games and not travel several hours to the nearest casino, I have to keep my tournament game sharp because that's all the local game are.

How do you feel about the difference between ring and tournament play, both profit wise and psychologically?

[TaoTe]

If you're going to start out playing NL ring than let me know where and what table you'll be playing. I'll offer some "cheap" lessons. Seriously, I think the biggest mistake to make is jumping into the world of NL as a beginer. NL will simply punish every mistake made much more than LHE will and starting out, you'll be making plent of mistakes (everyone does). For the love of your BR don't start out at NL unless it's at SnGs. A SnG will offer you the opportunity to play a lot of hands where the players have consequences behind their actions, get busted=lose $5.50. That's the key difference between play and real, you simply can't hit the refill button and have your BR magically returned to you.

Also, last night after doing some thinking about how to ease your transition, I jumped into a 500/1k play LHE game at pokerroom to see what the players were like. My thinking was that they had made a large enough BR to play at that level so they had to have some strategy at work, and I was right, they do have some strategy but not much. It's certainly not the equivalent of .25/.50 at pokerroom but if you're going to play LHE than do some reading (see:Books/Publications forum for questions) and try to execute the theory at the 500/1K to see the results.

Side not, I dropped 10K play money before I gave up playing.
/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Variance happens in every form of poker.

I believe I can make the money in SnGs consitently but ring games are probably more consistent and profitable in the long run.

Lolz I don't think I will take up on your offer TaoTe...I'm gonna need all the money I can get cos I don't have much of a BR...I also checked out the 500/100k NL play tables but they seemed to play pretty poorly...however I wasn't watching that long.

At the moment I'm considering starting with a SnG ot two, to see how I go...

[SheridanCat]

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How do you feel about the difference between ring and tournament play, both profit wise and psychologically?

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Well, I like tournaments for their "big payoff" potential, but they are unprofitable for me at this point in my career. The thing is, I only have to hit one to make me lifetime profitable. Psychologically, I understand what you mean when you say they make you nervous. In NLHE tournaments, your life is often on the line in the face of a coin flip.

I was at the WSOP the last couple years with media credentials, so I got a chance to see lots of coin flip situations up close and that's painful stuff. You've been thinking about this tournament all year, you've scraped up 10K or won your way in and then BOOM, you're done. That can be devastating mentally, I think. You see people walk away just dazed. It's even worse when you have a dominating hand and still lose because your edge even in that situation was only 2:1. That doesn't mean I don't want to play it, of course. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

All of this is to say that I think this is why good tournament players prefer to play small pots. If you hear people like Phil Ivey interviewed you will hear them say they want to keep the pots small. They aren't going for all-in confrontations because you're putting all your eggs in a basket when you are - at best - only a small favorite (usually). That's one way to shave some of the anxiety off the tournaments, I think. Of course, you have to be good enough to win a lot of smallish pots and good enough to sometimes lay down the winner. I'm not advocating weak-tight play, I'm just saying it can be a proper strategy.

I've never experienced it, but I think the most psychologically painful thing for a tournament player would be playing for 3 or 4 days and not making the money.

As for ring games, those are my preference, both psychologically and for profit. I basically lump SNGs in with ring games from a sheer play point of view. I'm usually making a profit about the same percentage of the time and the sessions have a length measured in quarters of an hour rather than hours or days for a tournament.

So, I guess that's my opinion for what it's worth.

Regards,

T

[TaoTe]

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I was at the WSOP the last couple years with media credentials, so I got a chance to see lots of coin flip situations up close and that's painful stuff.

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Who were you working for?

[TaoTe]

Well, good luck. I started with SnGs and nearly lost my shirt. Somehow I managed to turn it all around. I'm not sure how. There's a lot of good avdvice on the single table forums. Do a search for the SnG formula or make a post about it. I don't know about it or have much interest in it because I rarely play SnGs.