$109s - Push or Fold Part III

[Unarmed]

Opponents are all pretty solid multitablers. I.E.: everyone knows what everyone else is up to. I think this is close to a push any two situation, and I've only just been able to recognize that. I don't think anyone can really start killing SNGs until they start pushing a ton of hands here.

Thoughts?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t500 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t2340)
Hero (t2855)
Button (t1010)
SB (t3795)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with two cards.
<font color="#666666">

[Jman28]

I agree with you, Unarmed, but I'm not sure why this is anything more than an SNGPT calculation. Are you factoring anything else in?

[tigerite]

I pushed in a similar situation last night with 97o. Got called by AA though, lol. But I agree. In fact here's the hand in question

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1667)
Button (t1284)
SB (t2479)
BB (t2570)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[Unarmed]

I'd actually fold that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
There are several key difference between the two examples.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd actually fold that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
There are several key difference between the two examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big difference is that in your hand everyone is waiting for the next hand.

Basically it is SB that has to do something (most likely call a raise next hand) while no one else has to do something before it happens.

If it is a "push any two" situation? Certainly not where I am playing but if you can trust the other players to fold enough I can see how it is a good play.

Btw. What range would you put the small stack on here? He knows he realistically has to make a move this hand or the next two (or even one). Of course if he calls and the blinds fold you are getting a pretty good price to knock him out.

[puzzlemoney]

Okay--I can see at what I believe are the two major differences--the size of the blinds (esp. relative to the short stack) and your stack relative to the short stack, but the implications aren't immediately clear.

Isn't the short stack's greater need to act making pushing more dangerous in your hand?

...Just trying to get a handle on the push/fold part of the game. You know, the part that actually matters? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponents are all pretty solid multitablers. I.E.: everyone knows what everyone else is up to. I think this is close to a push any two situation, and I've only just been able to recognize that. I don't think anyone can really start killing SNGs until they start pushing a ton of hands here.

Thoughts?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t500 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t2340)
Hero (t2855)
Button (t1010)
SB (t3795)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with two cards.
<font color="#666666">

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is probably the most interesting post on this site in the past few weeks and it's barely gotten any responses. I've been talking to Unarmed about this hand a little bit and we have different views about a couple of things that I would really like some posters who beat this game to comment on.

When I initially went over the hand I said that I was putting all three player's calling ranges on 44+, A7s+ and A9+. The shorty: because he is short and looking to make a move. The SB: because he is the chip leader, and chip leaders play loose. The BB: because he closes the action (self-explanatory).

Now, make no mistake, I would not have a calling range like this. I'm probably TT+, AQo+ in most of those positions. But players are not good. The average $109er is simply not a good player. So I don't think it's relative as to what I would do in their situations, because I play these games because I'm better than they are. We play differently. I just have seen the most heinous calls over and over again at the $109's to be able to think they're calling range would be much tighter in this spot.

I'd love to hear responses from people who beat the game. I don't want to sound like a prick, but this is a really level oriented question. I'm not claiming I'm right at all. I would just like to be enlightened one way or the other.

As an aside, I realize Unarmed said that opponents are all pretty solid multitablers, but I don't think I have ever gotten to a bubble where I had not seen at least one player repeatedly make glaring errors. If they were all quite good players I see this making sense, but I guess I'm trying to say that I think this happens once in a blue moon. I also think this general discussion is interesting. I'm not trying to be cocky or ridiculous, but I just don't think most players are good and I doubt you'd all be playing these games if you thought otherwise.

[suited_ace]

I was actually discussing this kind of hands w/ stupidsucker yesterday. If you fold, the Button *will* push. By pushing you're "protecting" SB and BB from having to face Button's push.

SB &amp; BB will have a very tight range against you (and they'll probably be glad that the Button couldn't push), so I'm quite sure a push here is +EV.

[bennies]

once I start looking at that avatar, I just can't take my eyes off it again...

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
When I initially went over the hand I said that I was putting all three player's calling ranges on 44+, A7s+ and A9+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you run any numbers with those ranges? I think the ranges are ok. Sure short stack on button will hope to fold into the money, but with 2BBs he will not pass up a decent hand. After posting, BB is looking pretty short himself and if he has any idea you could have a very wide range here, he's not going to be uber-tight.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I initially went over the hand I said that I was putting all three player's calling ranges on 44+, A7s+ and A9+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you run any numbers with those ranges? I think the ranges are ok. Sure short stack on button will hope to fold into the money, but with 2BBs he will not pass up a decent hand. After posting, BB is looking pretty short himself and if he has any idea you could have a very wide range here, he's not going to be uber-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are my thoughts. What level do you play? I only ask because Unarmed and I seem to be disagreeing about the skill level at the $109 and I'd love some input.

[PokerProdigy]

I don't think you need to push with tons of hands because you can almost fold yourself into the money since button is so short-stacked. Therefore, I start pushing with legitimate hands (which is dependent on your position) and hope to pick up the blinds or knock out the short stack.

[microbet]

$55s are the highest I play.

[WebGuySteve]

I think this is clearly a push simply because nobody is going to make a move with a less than stellar hand here. In my experience, as the blinds get higher, people get tighter. All of a sudden 2.5 BBs has FE. This may seem obvious to you guys, but it has a real effect here. If the chip leader calls and loses, he's practically out. BB calls and loses, he's out. Shorty would LOVE for someone to call, so I think he's folding all but the best hands here.

I also think that a big factor here is that with this steal, Hero will be chip leader AND have the BB which I feel gives him a VERY good chance to receive a walk in the BB with shorty UTG.

In short, I'm pushing and crying when the chip leader calls with K7o /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Gramps]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponents are all pretty solid multitablers. I.E.: everyone knows what everyone else is up to. I think this is close to a push any two situation, and I've only just been able to recognize that. I don't think anyone can really start killing SNGs until they start pushing a ton of hands here.

Thoughts?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t500 (4 handed) converter

BB (t2340)
Hero (t2855)
Button (t1010)
SB (t3795)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

While it's okay to open up your pushing standards here, you also don't want to get so carried away with it that you become "known" as someone who always tries to take advantage of situations like this (against the regulars/semi-regulars). People take notes, and do open up their calling standards if such behavior gets too out of line. You should certainly do the same when faced with a "people don't want to call so I'll push with all sorts of garbage" type of player.

Finding the right balance here (both for pushing and calling) is one of the "feel" aspects of SNGs that (in many situations) formula/math alone can't tell you what the right play is.

[Newt_Buggs]

I would totally agree with you that the BB/SB will be playing very tight if they are decent. My main concern is the SS though, should he even be playing tight? Lets look at this from his perspective:
-He knows that the players are almost certainly going to fold behind him if he folds so folding has little chance of sneaking into the money
-He knows that next hand he will probably either push a weaker hand or gamble with a random hand in his BB the following hand
-He is getting almost 2:1 on his money if he calls your push

Also, this appears to be highly image dependent. If he doesn't think you are too aggressive this push looks very scary, otherwise he might read you as having a reasonably wide range.

so, how often is the button going to be calling with a relatively wide range?

also, how often SHOULD the button be calling with a relatively wide range?

[curtains]

btw Newt is right, I call with a pretty wide range from the button in this spot, since you are risking 1000 to win like 1750. Of course most people don't play like this and most pepole don't raise with any 2 UTG here. However if I think someone is capable of that, I'll call with Q9o on the button.

But whatever, probably against most opponents its a decent allin with 72o.