Do I go to war?

[nomadtla]

Villan is average nothing spectacular. Pretty straightforward with betting, it means he has a hand but seems to overvalue some

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 caps</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (18 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="blue">Hero ? TT is about the only (reasonable) capping hand I think I'm ahead of here except the rare AQs</font>

do I go to war? Call him down? Or just give up the ship?
should I have 3 bet that flop?

[MATT111]

The pot is big. I`d check-call it down for 1 bet.

[bjarne]

Unless MP3 is a really bad player I'd be verry worried.
MP3 cold called two raises preflop and the flop raise.
Even though you could be ahead of UTG+2 you could still
be beaten by MP3.

Hence, although the pot is fairly large I'd check/fold the turn. Especially if MP3 calls again.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless MP3 is a really bad player I'd be verry worried.
MP3 cold called two raises preflop and the flop raise.
Even though you could be ahead of UTG+2 you could still
be beaten by MP3.

Hence, although the pot is fairly large I'd check/fold the turn. Especially if MP3 calls again.

[/ QUOTE ]

whether we should check/call or check/fold this, you can't make that judgement based on a readless MP3. if he raises the turn, yeah, i'd fold, but all his calling could simply be calling. he could have an Ace he wants or a small pocket pair he's hoping for his set or thinks you 2 are bluffing.

unless we see some raising out of him, UTG is still the hand we need to concern ourselves with.

[Jake (The Snake)]

You have enough equity to call down. I would defenetely not go to war though. Also fold if MP3 raises. Calling 2 cold on the flop means he could defenetely be slowplaying a king.

I might consider check/folding if the river brings a ten, but otherwise see a showdown.

[GTSamIAm]

I think a turn fold is pretty reasonable here. If you get a read that the person likes to cap heads up with any pair, or is a loose raiser, always call down.

[GTSamIAm]

What are we beating? I don't think our implied odds are high enough for a set either.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a turn fold is pretty reasonable here. If you get a read that the person likes to cap heads up with any pair, or is a loose raiser, always call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

then we should have folded the flop.

[GTSamIAm]

Probably. But at that point, I don't think we had enough information to make that fold. After he proves he's not afraid of a flop 3-bet, I think we can safely fold the turn.

EDIT: Err, I misread your reply. You can make a loose flop call here. You're getting implied odds from your set.

[imported_The Vibesman]

"he has a hand but seems to overvalue some"

I think I'd just call down, unless MP3 gets out of line, and hope villian has an overplayed AQ or TT. MP3 may have a smaller pair than that, unless he just loves to call. I definitely think this is foldable against certain opponents.

[@bsolute_luck]

can i ask a new question: everyone has skipped the flop bet.

could someone answer me why we would even bet that?

[string4]

*please critique at will*

This is one of the leaks i'm struggling on - knowing when to slow down and when not to fear "monsters under-the-bed", so...I'm probably wrong. (guide me, experts!)

I'm three-betting the flop. If he caps, being that he has been "straightforward" with betting, then you know he has a good chance of holding a K. I'd stay in the turn, see if the turn improved my hand and if not, check and fold.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
*please critique at will*

This is one of the leaks i'm struggling on - knowing when to slow down and when not to fear "monsters under-the-bed", so...I'm probably wrong. (guide me, experts!)

I'm three-betting the flop. If he caps, being that he has been "straightforward" with betting, then you know he has a good chance of holding a K. I'd stay in the turn, see if the turn improved my hand and if not, check and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that is major spewage entirely. TT is the only preflop capping hand you're beating- why on earth would you 3-bet?

MUBS is only applicable when you think there is monsters but based on play, there is no reason to assume that. however, you still use common sense and common sense says "TT is the only preflop capping hand i'm beating, if i 3-bet, i'm either getting capped by a better hand or called by a better hand that thinks you may have the King, but won't fold."

IMO, i still don't think we should even bet this flop especially if we take the "call/call/call" line.

[aces_dad]

I agree we're most likely behind any reasonable PF capping hands here. As played, I c/fold the turn UI. I don't need to 3bet the flop and call a cap to re-enforce the idea I'm behind.

[MrWookie47]

I agree completely. I don't like that flop bet at all. We're not ahead of enough hands to bet for value, but the pot is large. I'm inclined to check/call the flop and turn, and to either check/call, bet/fold, or check/fold the river depending on what sort of player we're up against. If he'll bet more hands than he calls with (something like a UI AQs), check/calling is good. If he will wimp out and check behind with TT, but will call a bet with it, "just to see," bet/folding is good. I don't think this is the sort of player who will fold QQ to a bet here, so we won't gain much in the way of bluff equity. If he'll raise TT, betting is bad. If he'll wimp out with all but the very best hands (AA, AK, KK), check/folding is in order.

[eviljeff]

c/c the flop, you're getting odds to catch a J. the turn is a c/f, especially with mp3 in the mix.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
c/c the flop, you're getting odds to catch a J. the turn is a c/f, especially with mp3 in the mix.

[/ QUOTE ]

could someone explain this thought to me too? this is the second time i've heard concern over him- why? no reads were posted, so what are you all basing your concern on? if anything i would think his presence actually increases a thought to stay in the hand.

[WildDan]

I agree with you, absolute_luck, that Hero is likely ahead of MP3, however he could be trying to slowplay his Kx, likely something he got trapped into playing preflop KT or KJ. If he doesn't raise the turn, he just seems to be padding the pot for drawing to your J on the river.

That being said, I c/c the flop, and fold the turn UI. I definitely don't go to war, and I definitely don't 3-bet the flop (especially because I don't bet the flop to begin with).