Hmmm AJo hand

[Shillx]

The scene: 2+2 table just a few minutes ago
The suspects: Good players
The hero: A donk /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This hand may not look very interesting but I feel like there a quite a few things going on here. I'm the ass at the table with 2000 BB behind, and no one knows who I am since I changed my handle a few weeks ago. I have been playing close to the vest, but have been very tricky in the pots that I do enter. For example I coldcalled preflop with QQ, raised a 992 flop HU, bet-called (his check/raise) a turn blank and then raised an ace on the river (he folded to the river raise /images/graemlins/frown.gif).

Party .5/1 (6 handed I think)

Folds to CO who limps. I have seen him do it with a lot of hands like K6s so this limp doesn't exactly set off alarms. A Carpal/Tunnel pops it up on the button and I just call with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif in the SB. BB calls as does the CO.

Flop (8 SB) - A /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

All check to the CO who bets, button raises and I flat call. The BB folds as does the CO who bet the flop.

Turn (6 BB) - 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I lead out and the button thinks a long time before calling.

River (8 BB) - 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I think and lead...

What does he have? What do you think he did? Like/dislike?

There is a lot going on here, and I feel like it is spots like this that you have to understand as you move up since you face these HU situations more.

Cheers,
Brad

[apaugust]

Would a river check/call be good here? That way it would give missed KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif a chance to bet at it, but still only cost you 1BB if villain has something like AQo.

[@bsolute_luck]

Button could have a wide range of hands really, but i'm going to have to guess a pocket pair of some kind who wanted to get it HU with CO or knew he played junk hands.

he doesn't have a flush draw as why would he fold you out? his KQs is the nut flush and he probably isn't buying outs by the raise. that said, i think he would have reraised again on the turn on your bet with AK/Q.

i wouldn't like a check on the river as no hand less than a paired Ace is probably betting here at all, but small pockets probably will.

[dagat]

All check to the CO who bets, button raises and I flat call. The BB folds as does the CO who bet the flop.

I think you should have 3bet, and you lead the turn.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
All check to the CO who bets, button raises and I flat call. The BB folds as does the CO who bet the flop.

I think you should have 3bet, and you lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'll fold anyone who knows how to play poker. seeing as OP said "carpal/tunnel", i guess he was to assume a known 2+2er who posts a lot, so hopefully knows how to fold.

[Highn]

Button has something like pocket 9's and folds. There are just too many hands beating him right now. I like it. On the other hand if he raises you here you might be in a tough spot. I'm not sure if you can get away from the hand if he does.

CAP EVERY STREET IF YOU LIKE MONEY.

[aK13]

While you may not be betting/raising aggressively, your play represents a big hand. You basically called 2 cold OOP for the hand, and called 2 cold back on the flop. The sudden bet on the turn seems like you're expecting Button to raise, and you can 3bet him if he had a marginal hand trying for free showdown, and if he caps the turn, you know you're in trouble, since he will only cap better hands based on the way you've played so far.

[Redd]

This hand, for me at least, is a real thinker. I'm probably way off, but anytime that you offer these multiple question hands I try to participate because I learn from you kicking my ass (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=1689455&Forum =f21&Words=folded%20the%20flop&Searchpage=0&Limit= 25&Main=1689416&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=198 13&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&ol dertype=&bodyprev=#Post1689455).

I don't think we can narrow his hand range down much from the pfr, because after a bad limper this guy could be raising with alot.

I don't think he'll raise a flush draw and face everyone with two, and I'm unsure why he'd raise a hand that completely missed the flop because he'd likely be behind the limper. So he likely has a legit pair on the flop. Either a PP>5s or an ace. He probably puts you on a flush draw (or a weak ace, if you're unknown) after your cold-call.

I'm unsure if the button thinking for a long time is significant here, but he doesn't believe you have the straight. Plus there aren't any really legitimate 2p hands that you can call pf and flop with. The fact that he's calling knocks a low PP out of his range because he wouldn't want to give you a cheap card. I think that he's still calling with his pair here because he thinks you're bluffing, and is trying to WA/WB you.

On the river, there's not too many losing hands you'll pay off a raise with, excepting your current one (you would pay off here?). Maybe if he has some really high-level thinking he'll put you on a worse ace and raise, but I'm guessing he called and I'm still unsure if you beat his high pocket/lower ace or lost to a higher ace.

[chiachu]

I like preflop and flop.

I cant figure out why you would bet the turn though, unless you thought he had a flush draw. It seems more like button is trying to isolate CO with the raise, so i would have put him on a middle pp or an ace.

My line would have been WA/WB and to check/call the turn and bet out on the river.

[Shillx]

Nice analysis.

I don't want to suggest anything in my play, but you hit on a lot of the points.

1) When he calls the turn you can get rid of hands like 77.

2) There is a good chance that I have him crushed on the flop. If he has something like KK he will just check behind on the turn and call one on the river, so I lose value by not donking out. He will obviously call me down with KK when I bet out since there is a good chance that I'm bluffing or semi-bluffing.

3) There is also a good chance that he has an ace and is waiting until the river to raise. I feel like he will call (or raise) on the river far more often then he will fold, but I'm still not sure if betting the river is the right play. Obviously it is when he has a big underpair, but it might not when he holds an ace.

4) The river card is not the best in the world for my hand when I'm good, and it is great for me when I'm behind. There is some non-insignificant chance that I made trips on the end and that could change the river play quite a bit here.

Brad

Edit - I would probably play a flush draw very fast on this flop (to try and fold out QQ or something). I don't know if the villian would know that, but my flop check-coldcall will usually be an ace. Of course it would sometimes be a flush draw as well since I am very tough to read when I play the way I was today.

[Redd]

So do you need to pay off a raise here? Unless he knows you know he knows you...he...know...uh, do you think he's capable of raising with KK/AT here?

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
So do you need to pay off a raise here? Unless he knows you know he knows you...he...know...uh, do you think he's capable of raising with KK/AT here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Button puts Shill on crapass 2pair, he got counterfeited on the river, so bet/folding is definitely not optimal.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do you need to pay off a raise here? Unless he knows you know he knows you...he...know...uh, do you think he's capable of raising with KK/AT here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Button puts Shill on crapass 2pair, he got counterfeited on the river, so bet/folding is definitely not optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would the Button put Shill on 2p though? This would require a cool-call, then a cold-call with A2. And there's only 2 combinations of A2s left, or 1 if Villain has a non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif ace.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do you need to pay off a raise here? Unless he knows you know he knows you...he...know...uh, do you think he's capable of raising with KK/AT here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Button puts Shill on crapass 2pair, he got counterfeited on the river, so bet/folding is definitely not optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would the Button put Shill on 2p though? This would require a cool-call, then a cold-call with A2. And there's only 2 combinations of A2s left, or 1 if Villain has a non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would expect Button to notice that Shill might know that he's raising light to isolate this CO limper, so he would 3bet with many hands, surely with big aces/PPs. When he calls 2 preflop and on the flop, I think a very likely hand for Shill here is Ax or TP/GK, since he would like to "mask" the strength of his hand by just calling and letting the other 2 players to duke it out.

As Shill pointed out, he's been playing pretty tight, and Button is surely going to notice this, so as long as Shill is not folding, he's probably worried, which might explain why he took so long to call the turn.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
The scene: 2+2 table just a few minutes ago
The suspects: Good players and Saint_D


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. edit: Or so I thought. I don't have this hand in my history. Wasn't this Pif's table?

You forgot to mention the texture of the table. A lot of A-high hands taking pots. People raising to protect 2nd pair GK. Some tricky plays mixed in with about the right frequency.

-D

[aK13]

I am the Button.

[SCfuji]

you are magenta

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
you are magenta

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks more like pink to me.

[SCfuji]

im jealous, i want to be maroon. is that possible?

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
"I am the Button." - aK13

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sitting between you and Shillx. How could you be the button? Was it one of the hands I sat out?

[aces_dad]

An early PF betting range, opened up a little for the light limper, would be:

PP say 7's or better
Axo where x is 10 or better
Axs where x is say 6 or better

Other good SC say J10s or better.

The flop 2bet from button could be many of these hands including the PP, the Axo, Axs, and other club SC's.

As you say the turn call gets rid of the lower PP's and the slowness of his action was probably because he is trying to decide what you cc 2 with on the flop and lead out the turn with. I don't think he believes you have the straight, as given your tight image would you have cc 2 on the flop with a gutshot? If he's got a decent A he's probably now concerned with his kicker; AK or AQ would likely 2 bet here but AJ - A9 would have to think about how much they liked their kicker here.

The turn call getting 7:1 which would be easy to call with a 4-flush but, that gave him pause, makes me think he now has something he marginally likes like the A-10o.

So I do think there is value in betting this river, unless he's tricky enough to bluff-raise with worse hands like A-10 which would really put you in a bad spot.

My guess is he called down with something like A-10. The 5 may have helped you from a blind but very unlikely it helped him.

[DeathDonkey]

You played it perfect but can you fold to a turn raise? I think not. River is a must bet. Even if he is planning on raising I think you win a decent amount of the time. He shouldn't need much to be isolating preflop. I think the play was 3 bets preflop though.

-DeathDonkey

[aces_dad]

Hey Brad you going to update us on this hand?

[Shillx]

He just called my river bet (and he called fast). He showed A7o and lost. I like the way aK13 played it but I was a little pissed that he didn't raise the river. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I should have bet the flop here. That much is a given. I don't really mind my flop coldcall though a 3-bet might be a better play on this board (since a 3-bet looks more like a draw). All-in-all I like a river bet on this card. If the river were the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (for example) I probably would have checked with the intention of raising. Still don't know how I feel about it though (told you there is a lot going on here). Thoughts aK13?

Brad

[DeathDonkey]

Tell me why the coldcall preflop is best. I have decided you didn't play it perfectly after all because of that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. And your name is pink, which is even weirder.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me why the coldcall preflop is best. I have decided you didn't play it perfectly after all because of that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I don't play much limit, I have made it my goal to only try and play well when the flop comes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[baronzeus]

BTW, Shillx, you used a really weird line on this hand, and I'm thinking if something else might be optimal. I might go for the check-raise and on the turn, since pretty much any hand that button raises preflop and raises on the flop bets the turn IMO. (with the exception possibly of good suited kings). I don't think you are going to fold any other aces by check-raising here either, as he'll likely peel to try to counterfeit/catch a bluff.

The way it worked out CO's bet obviously put you in a bad position. A lot of time I like to just lead the flop straight off and see how the raiser reacts to my lead.


This is just a scramble of thoughts. I don't really like any lines but yours now, except maybe checking the turn to take advantage of aK13's aggression, since you couldn't have known that CO was going to bet the flop.




This is a completely non-standard hand and I'm glad you posted it. Lots of concepts to think about, a good learning tool.