Quick Question

[Spladle Master]

Page 31 of SCSFAP

"If you have a big pair, but two or more unduplicated upcards higher than your pair are behind you, you probably should fold if your kicker is poor and you don't have a two-flush."

Page 43 of SCSFAP

"Suppose you have:

9/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Your cards are live, no one is yet in the pot, but behind you is an ace and a king. (Notice that the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is a straight flush card.) You should usually raise.

You can't fold the pair of nines with a suited jack if your cards are live even if you thought that there was a good chance that the player with the ace up does have two aces. So it is better to raise yourself. And in this case if you are reraised you have to call. If your jack was not a straight flush card then the right play is to raise, and if you get reraised, usually fold."

Which is correct?

[Andy B]

I don't ordinarily fold big pairs, but the two passages are not contradictory. In the second scenario, your kicker is good.

[BTirish]

Both are. There is no contradiction in what is stated. First Sklansky (et al.) say that you should raise if you have a two flush to go with the pair. They then add on p. 43 that you should fold to a reraise unless the flush card is also a straight card.

At least that's how I read it. It also helps to keep in mind that most of the specific 3rd street advice is for the $15-$30 game which the book focuses on. Game temperament and ante structure will make a difference in starting hand selection and raising requirements.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't ordinarily fold big pairs, but the two passages are not contradictory. In the second scenario, your kicker is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the text in bold. It states that if I did not have a straight flush kicker, I still should raise.

[Andy B]

When you have a pair of Nines, an off-suit Jack is still a quality kicker.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't ordinarily fold big pairs, but the two passages are not contradictory. In the second scenario, your kicker is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the text in bold. It states that if I did not have a straight flush kicker, I still should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

read it more carefully. It says to raise but then fold to a reraise if it is not suited, but call if it is suited.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't ordinarily fold big pairs, but the two passages are not contradictory. In the second scenario, your kicker is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the text in bold. It states that if I did not have a straight flush kicker, I still should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

read it more carefully. It says to raise but then fold to a reraise if it is not suited, but call if it is suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

On page 31 it says to fold a big pair if two unduplicated cards higher than your pair are yet to act and your kicker is poor. On page 43 it says to raise with a straight flush kicker and call a reraise. It then says that if the jack were not a straight flush kicker you should fold to the reraise. I misunderstood this part. I thought it was saying that you should raise with the nines no matter what your kicker but then fold if you got reraised unless you had a straight flush or overcard kicker. When apparently it was saying that you should only raise with a quality kicker (and an offsuit jack is still a quality kicker with a pair of nines) but fold to the reraise unless you have a really super-awesome-fun-time-good kicker (like an overcard or a straight flush card).

I'm sorry if it is difficult to interpret what I'm saying, but I would appreciate it if someone let me know if my line of thinking is correct. Andy?

[Andy B]

I think I followed you, and I think you have a handle on it, I think.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't ordinarily fold big pairs, but the two passages are not contradictory. In the second scenario, your kicker is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the text in bold. It states that if I did not have a straight flush kicker, I still should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

read it more carefully. It says to raise but then fold to a reraise if it is not suited, but call if it is suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

On page 31 it says to fold a big pair if two unduplicated cards higher than your pair are yet to act and your kicker is poor. On page 43 it says to raise with a straight flush kicker and call a reraise. It then says that if the jack were not a straight flush kicker you should fold to the reraise. I misunderstood this part. I thought it was saying that you should raise with the nines no matter what your kicker but then fold if you got reraised unless you had a straight flush or overcard kicker. When apparently it was saying that you should only raise with a quality kicker (and an offsuit jack is still a quality kicker with a pair of nines) but fold to the reraise unless you have a really super-awesome-fun-time-good kicker (like an overcard or a straight flush card).

I'm sorry if it is difficult to interpret what I'm saying, but I would appreciate it if someone let me know if my line of thinking is correct. Andy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy read gooder than we /images/graemlins/tongue.gif