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MarkD

08-21-2005, 08:19 PM

I’m in need of a checkup. Here are 4 hands I played today. I am torn between posting them in one post like I chose to do, or separate threads thus spamming the forum. I will try it this way this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villian in this hand is a decent thinking TAG player. 26/17/2.4 in 200 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]
The Villian in this hand was a loose aggressive player who had been getting the best of me the entire session. He was completely kicking my ass in every hand and was probably getting more money than he should from me in those hands. He is 40/18/1.8 over 120 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]
I only had like 20 hands on this guy but I knew that he was very loose. He also appeared to be passive but I hestitate to include that because after 20 hands I really didn’t have a good line on him except that he seemed to be in a lot of hands. Because I’m four tabling that’s the maximum of the information that I can assimilate – I was not watching his play on all streets in the hands he was involved in.
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, MP calls, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero ??

[/ QUOTE ]
This villain is one of those 35/17 players who are also slightly too loose and aggressive post-flop.
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero ???

brettbrettr

08-21-2005, 10:16 PM

Hand 1 is a river bet.
Hand 2 seems a bet, but if he's capable of bluff-raising the turn I guess you should check and call/bet if checked to on the river.
Hnad 3 sucks, but I call hoping to see a missed flush but expecting to see a freaky 2 pair.
Hand 4 I think is prob a fold.

Trix

08-21-2005, 10:57 PM

1) Valuebet
2) I dont mind a check here if it will make him bet about anything on the river.
3) I just call
4) You can´t fold that hand against those guys, call down.

MAxx

08-22-2005, 12:21 AM

1) I think you have to bet here. I'd probably bet/fold vs this guy in this scenario vs this player.
2) My first thought was that I would have to bet to prevent a free gutter or flush draw... which he could potentially raise with, or with an a. So if I bet and were raised, I would call down. Then I thought well, with this board, i think it is more likely that he fold to a turn bet with anything other than an A or K. You are tied with the other weaker As now. Your kicker is only good if he has an A witout a K and the River is a Jack. So I'd give a free card here to a 4 outer to save myself when behind and induce a bluff on the river. Since the heart draw is backdoor, I'd be a little less worried about that.
3) I'd fold to a seemingly passive player.
4) I agree with Trix here... I call down.

jph0424

08-22-2005, 01:20 AM

1. bet
2. bet
3. call
4. call down

Jgents

08-22-2005, 01:52 AM

Hand4: What are you putting villain on here. I'm of the thought that this is a raise/fold. If we're putting villain on nothing, then wouldn't it be better to reraise here? Charge the flush straight/draw and possibly fold the six-three outers. Put pressure on this guy. Yes, no?

MarkD

08-22-2005, 02:32 AM

It seems everyone agrees that we need to value bet this river. I agree as well, and I did value bet the river. Now, how do we handle the check raise?

[ QUOTE ]
Villian in this hand is a decent thinking TAG player. 26/17/2.4 in 200 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everyone that said that this is a very safe hand to check through on the turn. There are 8 possible cards on the river that I don’t want to see that may beat me if I am currently ahead but every other card in the deck is good and this guy would bet every single one of them. Checking through on this turn makes the hand easy. Betting makes the hand hard. I bet.

What is your plan for the rest of the hand?

[ QUOTE ]

The Villian in this hand was a loose aggressive player who had been getting the best of me the entire session. He was completely kicking my ass in every hand and was probably getting more money than he should from me in those hands. He is 40/18/1.8 over 120 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 I’ll wait for a few more opinions as I don’t think this river decision is cut and dry.

And it appears that Hand 4 should also be left for more insight as people advise me on the various options I have for playing this hand out. I think it is a hard hand and I really want to play these hands well.

MarkD

08-22-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand4: What are you putting villain on here.

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Villian has a Queen, or a 8, or a 7, or a 4, or two pair or better. He could also have a flush draw or straight draw or simply be making a play against me. These types of players have a lot of moves. He may have ace high and think he is value check raising me here. Maybe I misunderstand these players but they seem to have a lot of "moves" and obviously this does make it difficult to play against them.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the thought that this is a raise/fold. If we're putting villain on nothing, then wouldn't it be better to reraise here? Charge the flush straight/draw and possibly fold the six-three outers. Put pressure on this guy. Yes, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure it's that easy. Here are some of my thoughts on this decision, and they address most of your points (but may not answer your questions).

1) If he is bluffing I want him to keep bluffing - it is more profitable for me if I can induce him to bluff again on the river than it is for me to get him to fold right now on the turn.

2) If he has three-six outers AND I can induce him to bluff the river then it is more profitable for me to do that then to make him fold those hands right now. In reality though, it may be most profitable for me to 3-bet the turn and induce a bluff on the river by checking. It is not clear to me here.

3) Charging the flush or straight draws, if he has those, is definitely a good thing. But if he will bluff with these on the river then I can let him charge himself can I not?

4) I think that when you put pressure on these tricky agressive loose players I think that it often backfires and gives them the capability of outplaying you. On this specific hand if I put a lot of pressure on this guy I may end up folding the best hand or I may end up charging myself more when I have the worst hand, or I may not allow myself the opportunity to outdraw him, or I may not extract maximum value from him if he is bluffing.

Maybe I should just fold though.

wheelz

08-22-2005, 02:46 AM

Hand 1: bet/call
Hand 2: close because you don't want to give a gutshot a free card, but I probably still check and call any river
Hand 3: call
Hand 4: call down

wheelz

08-22-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should just fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, you just made a long detailed post about why calling down is best, don't fold now

MarkD

08-22-2005, 02:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should just fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, you just made a long detailed post about why calling down is best, don't fold now

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, that last line was a semi-sarcastic way for me to say, "My head hurts, I need to stop thinking!"

Jgents

08-22-2005, 03:33 AM

Well, I admit folding may be too weak if you are unsure of his holdings and against this type of player.

If this is a tricky but thinking player, after you call down his reraise on the turn, he’s going to put you on something you are willing to showdown, or perhaps make a play with at the river, so I wouldn’t rely too much on him bluffing again on the river after you stick around. It’s possible I’m giving villain too much credit here in his ability to think and slow down and am therefore wrong with this read. A mistake I make often online since I play the low limits. Other than that, I see and understand your thoughts regarding calling down in the SB as opposed to raising here. If this villain goes all out with his bluff until the river, calling down is best as you lose the minimum when behind but extract cumulative value from his bluffing when ahead.

I just thought this would be a good spot to maximize value when is likely villain is behind and determined to see the river and perhaps showdown with as little as A high. It just depends on how risk-adverse one is really. Risks with my line as you have alluded is that you open yourself up to a 3 bet when you are not necessarily behind--when he tries to play back at you with nothing or when he semi-bluffs with his straight/flush draw, which some aggro players love to do HU. Surely, an interesting discussion for me. Blind play is hard for some (me).

Chairman Wood

08-22-2005, 03:41 AM

I'm going to go one at a time
Hand one
I see value here. Fear not the flush. With a flush draw this player donk bets the flop or c/r the flop. In addition he will call with any Q, a worse A, possibly a few pocket pairs and if for some reason he was still around with KJ and he just hit a K he'll call with that too.

Chairman Wood

08-22-2005, 03:48 AM

Hand 2
Kinda tough but only in the sense that I think it's a close decision but I do think you are pretty good most of the time. I like to bet here and call down if c/r. If he just calls your turn bet and checks to you on the river bet again. I think he calls you down with a lot of pocket pairs and J's. Also, he may pick on you with the scare card. I do believe that if you put the player from hand 1 in this hand (An aggresive put tight and thinking player) I think you pull a check and then call his river bet or bet if checked to.

Chairman Wood

08-22-2005, 03:52 AM

Hand 3
Are you thinking of 3-betting instead? In these situations I just get upset and think he hit J9 for two pair or something but call on the chance he might have been slowplaying KJ or something. There is no way I'm folding here though but I just don't have the gall to three bet this river. I call

Chairman Wood

08-22-2005, 04:02 AM

Hand 4
I believe this is the hardest one. If I'm calling the turn I'm calling any river with the exception if I improve then I might c/r. Correct me if I'm wrong here but you have to be good one in 4.5 times here to make calling correct. hmm.... I say sure. He may be pulling this with a picked up club draw, bottom pair, mid pair with a worse kicker. He could also be doing this with a queen and although you don't really have the odds to draw to it, I think it could be made up for in the times you have the best hand. By the way, my advice in this thread and all other threads lately has been given more with the purpose of other people giving feedback on my thoughts then me giving advice myself.

whodaman

08-22-2005, 05:13 AM

Hand 1 is a bet
Hand 2 is a check and call any river.. bet if checked too... you are now splitting with any ace(cept AQ). a j is drawing dead. and a k has you screwed
Hand 3 is a call... the raise is scary but you cant fold this
Hand 4 is a fold... standard