BB special pairs on monotone flop... [Archive]

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VoraciousReader

08-21-2005, 05:03 PM

<Deleted before posting a long whine about why I'm playing .02/.04 and moved to NC thread>
UTG+2 has been playing since I sat down and is probably too tight. I'd guess he prides himself on making good laydowns. When he has a strong hand, though, he LOVES the checkraise. When he led the flop, I was pretty sure that he, at least didn't have a made flush. He would have checkraised it.

MP1 is newer to the table, and I don't have a read yet. He/she definitely has some kind of pre-flop standards but hasn't shown much down.

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (12 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

My thoughts in white:
 I very nearly folded the flop. I felt that this was a situation where I could easily improve to the second-best hand. In fact, when I checked, my intention was check/fold. But then everyone called! When it came back to me it was 13:1 and I decided to peel a card to my 2-outer even at the chance I was drawing dead (or nearly). Would really appreciate some other opinions...anyone fold the flop? Turn, to the raise? River? Thanks.

Highn

08-21-2005, 05:27 PM

I'de fold the flop..

ktg2469

08-21-2005, 05:32 PM

I would fold this flop. Everyone that saw the flop got something that interested them or they would fold in a heartbeat (unless they are really loose). I think best case scenario you are behind just top pair, and you would have 4 outs (being generous) against that. Your draw is very weak and the board provides a lot of redraws, especially since you still have 4 opponents on the turn. The fact that you could be drawing dead if someone has a set or a flush should have you hitting the fold button.

If you are going to continue, the play from the turn on seems ok.

08-21-2005, 05:48 PM

You have no hearts and there was 4 callers before you.
Save your money

VoraciousReader

08-21-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold this flop. Everyone that saw the flop got something that interested them or they would fold in a heartbeat (unless they are really loose). I think best case scenario you are behind just top pair, and you would have 4 outs (being generous) against that. Your draw is very weak and the board provides a lot of redraws, especially since you still have 4 opponents on the turn. The fact that you could be drawing dead if someone has a set or a flush should have you hitting the fold button.

[/ QUOTE ] Apart from the two I specifically mentioned, everyone was really loose. I still remember how to pick a table /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But I know you are right. And I knew it at the time...but I didn't.

Eeegah

08-21-2005, 05:51 PM

I have no idea why you'd want to see the turn with middle pair no kicker on a monotone board with 3 callers.

Dave G.

08-21-2005, 07:12 PM

I don't fold the flop, and I think folding the flop is very weak. You are closing the action and getting great value on your call. It's unlikely anyone flopped the flush. Of course, another heart sinks your hand, but that will occur only a minority of the time. Getting 11:1 and closing the action, you should see the turn.

This would be very different if SB bet the flop. In that case, you have a clear fold. Your relative position here lets you take one off with relative safety and you're getting great value.

I think you played it perfectly.

irishpint

08-21-2005, 07:15 PM

i dont mind the flop call closing the action. i play the turn the same way- bet out so no free cards can come. I might be the river, too, so it doesn't get checked through. I think there is a good chance we have made the best hand here, as a flopped flush is pretty rare. I could see MP raising the turn with an Ace, try to limit the field to the river.

Paxosmotic

08-21-2005, 07:18 PM

I agree with Dave. We're getting great odds and we have ~4 outs. 2 sevens, 1.5 fours, and .5 for the backdoor straight. I have no problem with peeling on this flop, and as we've thoroughly discussed in this forum, monotone flop does not mean someone has a flush.

eviljeff

08-21-2005, 08:29 PM

this is a horrible flop call. even if you improve, there will certainly be redraws out there. 3bet the turn, get your money in while you have the best of it.

eviljeff

08-21-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I decided to peel a card to my 2-outer

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? if you think you have two outs why are you calling getting 11:1?

VoraciousReader

08-21-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
huh? if you think you have two outs why are you calling getting 11:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a little hyperbole on my part. Actually, a non-heart 4 was a likely out, and I did have 3 to the straight. I lost the hand (MP1 flopped a low flush and didn't raise the flop), and I've been losing a lot of hands recently, and was kind of in a funk when I posted it.

I'm feeling down on my poker game right now.

Shillx

08-21-2005, 08:58 PM

I would fold on the flop. You have four "outs" so to speak, but in reality those outs aren't as good as you think....

- Someone will have flopped a flush about 25% of the time.
- Even if you hit a good card, you will hit a bad card on the river (an ace or heart) about 28% of the time.

So in reality, I would give you roughly 4*.75*.75 = 2.25 outs here. Not enough to call on the flop.

Brad