Foiled Plans with KK

[W. Deranged]

Ok, so this hand was quite confusing to me. Villain at the time was like 14/14/2 over only 20 hands or so. I'm pretty new to the table. Villain seems on the aggressive side.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Deranged is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Deranged 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, Deranged calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Deranged bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, MP2 folds, Deranged calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Deranged checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Deranged calls.

River: (10.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Deranged checks, CO checks.

I think every street but pre-flop is debateable here. I think I played like a sissy girl on the flop and on the river. The A's started falling and I got decidedly confused.

I'll share more detailed thoughts later.

[toss]

I like 3-betting the flop since I think the risk of the turn getting checked behind out weighs the gain of one SB. Plus sometimes villain will fold a lower pocket pair if you checkraise the turn.

[Nick Royale]

I'm thinking about bet/calling the river. Given the way villain played preflop and flop he's likely to hold AA-JJ/AK. You're behind to AA/AK (5 combos) and ahead to QQ/JJ (12 combos). Villain is also a little bit more likely to be playing QQ/JJ this way given the previous action.

The question is about how he would play these hands on the river. If you bet you'll have to call a raise IMO since he's aggressive. This will mean you'll have to pay him off every time he raises the river with AA/AK. Still he will most likely also call with QQ/JJ which means you'll gain 1BB 12 times in 17 and lose 2BB 5 times in 17 by betting the river. It seems like a profitable bet. But since the opponent is aggressive he will probably valuebet QQ and likely even JJ on the river. This means you'll rarely gain any extra bets, but you give villain an oppurtunity to gain an extra BB when he holds an ace. Check/call the river I would.

I'm not used to these limits and even though the opponent is aggressive we might find a bet/fold on the river? I'm not comfortable with it and wouldn't do it on 2/4-3/6 where I usually play.

[brettbrettr]

3 bet the flop.

[W. Deranged]

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3 bet the flop.

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Yeah I know but why?

[brettbrettr]

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3 bet the flop.

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Yes, this is somewhat tainted by the turncard/ action, *but* you're OOP and very, very likely ahead. Don't f**k round OOP. After capping pre-flop this guy is showing down anyways so get the bets in the pot.

[brettbrettr]

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3 bet the flop.

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Yeah I know but why?

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Missing tunr c/r sucks.

[clownshoes]

Im in the 3bet the flop crowd. Getting fancy OOP can be costly when you miss c/rs and get in sticky situations. Keep it straightforward and get some more bets in sooner.

[Carmine]

I like the flop lead because you know CO is going to become your partner for a moment and raise pushing out MP2's Ax. We don't want him hanging around. Now I kinda like a flop 3-bet because that opens alot of options. If it gets capped we can C/R the turn. If he just calls he might be planning on raising the turn allowing us to Bet/3-bet (of course I'm not anticipating an Ace on the turn). Does anyone feel this is too aggressive with KK?? If villian comes over the top in any of these situations we are forced to call down IMO.

Now if we 3-bet the flop and villian caps it. Now the Ace falls on the turn. Do we view this as a good card for us? I'm thinking yes, because AK doesn't cap the flop and now there are only 3 ways for him to have AA.

If we 3-bet the flop and villian just calls. Now the Ace falls on the turn. I'm more concerned than when he caps the flop IMO. Not that we are definatly behind. I just think the probabilty is higher. Do we agree that more passive play on the turn is required weather he holds AK or QQ?

The way this hand played out. If Hero leads the river, which I may want to, because the same reason we lead is the same reason why QQ must call. We need to be good 67% of the time. Ther are 9 combos of AA/AK that beat us and a minimum of 16 combos QQ/JJ that don't more if we include TT/99. I think we should lead this river.

[Paxosmotic]

I cast my lot with the 3-bet flop crowd, and also with those who have said bet the river. The bet is so blindingly stupid and unexpected that villain almost has to call it with the many hands we beat, easily outweighing the times he raises with an ace.

[hobbsmann]

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3 bet the flop.

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Yeah I know but why?

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for value.

[brettbrettr]

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3 bet the flop.

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Yeah I know but why?

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for value.

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And because missing turn c/r's sucks.

[chief444]

Were you at least planning to lead the turn until the ace fell? Normally I'll just 3-bet the flop here OOP. I don't mind calling the flop if you don't check to him on the turn though. But generally here I'm just 3-betting. Once the ace falls I think the check/call on the turn is fine.

I'd bet the river though...and probably even call a raise against this opponent. He's probably not coldcapping AQ preflop and there are only 5 combinations (4 AK, 1 AA) that beat you. With both aces on board TT/JJ/QQ will pay off.

[Carmine]

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I'd bet the river though...and probably even call a raise against this opponent. He's probably not coldcapping AQ preflop and there are only 9 combinations ( 8 AK, 1 AA) that beat you. With both aces on board TT/JJ/QQ will pay off.

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FYP

[chief444]

My post wasn't broken. Thanks anyway. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hero has KK. Two aces are on the board.

[Carmine]

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My post wasn't broken. Thanks anyway. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hero has KK. Two aces are on the board.

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Just testing you /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nick Royale]

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The way this hand played out. If Hero leads the river, which I may want to, because the same reason we lead is the same reason why QQ must call. We need to be good 67% of the time. Ther are 9 combos of AA/AK that beat us and a minimum of 16 combos QQ/JJ that don't more if we include TT/99. I think we should lead this river.

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There are 5 combos of AA/AK. I would need a stronger read to put the preflop capper on TT/99. I like check/calling more than bet/calling.