Playing for a living

[miami32]

I have been browsing posts lately and I keep reading that people "play for a living." IMO I hope most of these people are just playing to make money while in school. Playing 4 to 8 tables of 3/6 can make you some nice change but you can make much more in a real job. I don't think anyone should consider playing as a pro unless they can beat 10/20 or better. Like Dr. Al Schoonmaker says their is just more money elsewhere and why put all your eggs in one basket.

Thoughts?

Robert

[toss]

8 tables of 2/4 = About 750 Hands an hour.

At 2BB/100 that means $60 an hour + bonus/rakeback = About $65ish.

30 hours a week = $1950, 45 Weeks a year = $87750

After taxes about $58,792.50

Imagine a 3 or 4BB winner at the game.

Also theres the prospect of saving accounts and investing.

[ThePimpulator]

You say it like those guys have reached where they want to be. I don't know any online pro that feels like they have made it because they are at the 3/6. Just like with any career you have to work your way up.

I think it is great that getting to the top depends purely on you in this game. The harder you work, the faster you are in the board room. Look at BycicleKick. Starts in the mail room, owns the company within the year. At which company can you do that? A one off I know, but the point is the same. And sure there will be those that can't get past the 3/6, but they aren't going to get out of the mail room either.

750 hands per hour is a huge overestimate.

+$5 per hour from rakeback is a huge underestimate.

[toss]

I'm bad at calculating rakeback. So its more like $15 an hour?

[cracker9521]

At 2/4 i would say in the $20 dollar per thousand hands range probably slightly more. Assuming full ring.

$12 would be my best estimate.

[Uglyowl]

No gas costs either. Cheaper food from your kitchen.

[toss]

So my revised estimates:

$80/hour times 30 hours a week times 45 weeks/yr.

About $108,000/yr. - taxes = $72,360

$72,360 + Wise investments (Lets say 7% annual return) = Nice chunka change.

I think Party's 2/4 will be beatable for 2BB/100 for many years to come. The biggest risk is if Congress goes and does something crazy. Then we would see the mass migration of Pasty Pale Party Poker Players to Vegas/AC/Foxwoods.

[miami32]

I absolutely understand what you are saying. I myself have made it from the so called mail room to the board room. I just worry about the people who are stuck in mid management so to speak. I myself put all my eggs in one basket and I just don't want to see other people make that same mistake. I think people need to realize that if it was so easy everybody would be doing it.

Robert

[toss]

Yeah I know what you're saying. I'm not quitting school (even though I've been tempted to), because Ed Miller said its highly irresponsible relying solely on Poker. I'm learning about investing, accounting, all that good stuff.

[TemetNosce]

Probably closer to $25-$27 per 1K hands, assuming 25% rakeback deal, at $2/4 full ring LHE.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably closer to $25-$27 per 1K hands, assuming 25% rakeback deal, at $2/4 full ring LHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's about right, I get somewhere around 400 hands/hr doing almost entirely 8-tabling. I generally make about 12/hr in rakeback while doing it, which ends up being somewhere around .6BB/100. I can generally expect 48/hr if I keep up 8 tables. But really, playing as a pro at 2/4 is about risk and the cash flow available. Any limits from 2/4 up I'm confident anybody could grind it for a living, but for me and a few others, I don't have the kind of cash available to play higher. And 2/4 is ridiculously easy money.

[toss]

Oh crap I scrwed up my numbers. 750 hands an hour is more like 15 tables. So Just cut all my figures in half.

[MyTurn2Raise]

Already have some degrees...felt like pissing away my mid 20s...want to see how high I can go....give it a few years...if it doesn't work out, back to accounting.

just passed the one year mark and still loving it

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh crap I scrwed up my numbers. 750 hands an hour is more like 15 tables. So Just cut all my figures in half.

[/ QUOTE ]

8-tabling 6max would get you somewhere in the vicinity of 550 hands/hr. Of course the increased poker profits would be diminished somewhat by the cost of all the crack required to 8-table 6max for 30 hrs/week.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course the increased poker profits would be diminished somewhat by the cost of all the crack required to 8-table 6max for 30 hrs/week.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh crap I scrwed up my numbers. 750 hands an hour is more like 15 tables. So Just cut all my figures in half.

[/ QUOTE ]

8-tabling 6max would get you somewhere in the vicinity of 550 hands/hr. Of course the increased poker profits would be diminished somewhat by the cost of all the crack required to 8-table 6max for 30 hrs/week.

[/ QUOTE ]

8 tabling 6max runs about 650-700 hands per hour depending on how good you are at switching tables quickly.

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh crap I scrwed up my numbers. 750 hands an hour is more like 15 tables. So Just cut all my figures in half.

[/ QUOTE ]

8-tabling 6max would get you somewhere in the vicinity of 550 hands/hr. Of course the increased poker profits would be diminished somewhat by the cost of all the crack required to 8-table 6max for 30 hrs/week.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[W. Deranged]

Sup dude,

FWIW I consider myself "semi-pro" because I do exactly what you say: I'm in school full time and play poker to pay for my expenses (it actually allows me to afford a much nicer lifestyle than I could relying on math teaching assistant pay).

You make a good point.

I was at Turning Stone the other day and this old guy started telling me and this other young guy (who was not very good) how we were so lucky as kids because there was so much information and so many opportunities as a poker player. He explained that he wished he'd known what we did so he "wouldn't have had to work a day in his life."

It struck me as an extremely myopic way to think about poker and life. Poker provides many great opportunities but it is simply bad strategy--high variance, probably lower expectation--for most people my age to expect to be life-long professional poker players.

[JonPKibble]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been browsing posts lately and I keep reading that people "play for a living." IMO I hope most of these people are just playing to make money while in school. Playing 4 to 8 tables of 3/6 can make you some nice change but you can make much more in a real job. I don't think anyone should consider playing as a pro unless they can beat 10/20 or better. Like Dr. Al Schoonmaker says their is just more money elsewhere and why put all your eggs in one basket.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not suggesting that one should necessarily depend on poker for all their income, but isn't depending on a job kind of like putting all your eggs in one basket?

[elindauer]

Dear Robert,

Money isn't everything.

Good luck.
Eric

[blatz]

Real jobs suck, having to listen to addle minded bosses sucks. Waking up early in the morning sucks.

Freedom to do what you want when you want is good. Flying to exotic countries on a whim because a girl you've known a week asks you too, that is also good. Being able to sit out on your porch and enjoy the sunshine everyday, well, I'm sure you can guess if that is good or not.

Worrying about financial security, or putting all your eggs in one basket, to me, is a joke. Anyone with half a brain in America can land on there feet anytime things don't work out. I'm 35 and have done it a few times. No regrets.

Just as you hope some poker players should reconsider their lifestyle, I beleive those who follow the well beaten path of the "safe choice" should be doing the same, as they may be squandering the only thing worth having, personal freedom. Some people may get that feeling through working a forty hour week and receiving a guaranteed salary, I don't.

I'm sure Dr. Al would consider me a bit of an idiot, as he tends to stick with the conservative mindset, but even my parents at this point, after having worked there entire lives are both jealous and proud of their son.

It's all perspective.

(I did graduate college, only because my sweet mom said I'd regret not having a diploma when the rough world smacked me back down...the world aint that rough, I never received my smackdown, and I consider my college years mainly wasted)

PS Now go out there and play some god damn good poker.

[BlackRain]

I agree with a lot of the points in the above post but also with the OP to a certain extent. I tried to make a living at this game for several months after getting laid off from a job. While it wasn't a disaster, I got by, I was not financially and I think more importantly, psychologically prepared for the grind that it can be.

I do have a college degree and have since gone back to work. I am hoping to do it right next time, aiming for early next year. At that point I will be financially ready and hopefully, psychologically prepared as well. I am not going to live by a clock all my life, listen to incompetent "superiors." Poker offers me an escape from this but I'll be damned if I go about it unprepared again.

[naphand]

you pay tax on your poker winnings?

LMAO

shame, no tax on gambooling in the UK.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I myself have made it from the so called mail room to the board room.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9412/hudsucker1wj.jpg
Are you from Muncie?

[toss]

Laugh at us some more please. 33% doesn't hurt enough.

[naphand]

OK OK I'm sorry... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Octopus]

How much is the VAT again?

[flair1239]

Not to take a shot at anyone doing this.

But I have always had trouble understanding why non-college students go pro at a level of 5/10 or below.

I have read and understand the arguments for it. I also wish the best for people like Qtip (if anyone deserves to do well in this it is him.).

That said I think it really does not take much time to just work for another year or so and build a 10/20 or 15/30 bankroll and then turn pro.

I think this approach would give the player much more flexibility.

For a college student just trying to make it through I think plying low-limit for living expenses is a wonderful thing. As in college being able to set your own hours is a huge plus. It also gives you the oppurtunity to take an unpaid internship, which can be very valuable.

I have no doubts as to the viability of being a low limit pro, for a good player who is dedicated. I just think starting out playing higher would make it easier. Because, I really think that it is emotinally taxing to know that you have to get in 35-40 hours a week to make your bills.

As opposed to a higher limit, you could afford to play less during certain weeks if you feel a little off emotionally.

Just my .02.